Fishing Forum

I have been on Strawberry probably more this season than any previous. Started our long-term camp May 16 and my last paid day is Aug 7 (Sunday). Actually I already moved the trailer and boat over to the boondock camping area above Mud Creek today to get a little more time. 

Thinking back on the season, I have been asked many times "how's the fishing" and by far my most common answer this year was SLOW. Now I don't keep a documented ledger as I know some here do, so my impressions of the season are just recollections. Back right at ice-off just before the camp season started, we did pretty well for the first 3 weeks on the SC side. In June we started getting them on the Strawberry side, but it never seemed to be fast fishing. We got some, but limit days were far and few between. Then came July - the weather got hot and fishing really slowed down. Now we are into August and with the monsoon rains, it has started to cool down. Last week I saw a surface temp at 75*. This morning it was 67.5*. It may be my imagination or maybe I am learning some new tricks, but it seems however slowly, the fishing might be picking up a little. 

I can't be sure why this season has been overall slower than previous seasons, water/environmental temps?, but I pulled the kokanee stocking reports for Strawberry as follows.

2016   405,996
2017   462,970
2018   295,706
2019   345,712
2020   361,099
2021   375,813
2022   449,595

If the kokanee mature in 3-4 years, we can see that the stocking numbers support the off year. I am not sure why the Division stocked over 25% less in 2018 and not much better in 2019. Wonder if this was a hatchery problem? or they divided the stock to other new waters? or what the reason was? I'm sure there are many guesses. Any information from the DNR would be great - did they expect a down year, etc? I guess the positive take away here is 2026 should be a banner year. 

(08-05-2022, 10:47 PM)brookie Wrote: [ -> ]I have been on Strawberry probably more this season than any previous. Started our long-term camp May 16 and my last paid day is Aug 7 (Sunday). Actually I already moved the trailer and boat over to the boondock camping area above Mud Creek today to get a little more time. 

Thinking back on the season, I have been asked many times "how's the fishing" and by far my most common answer this year was SLOW. Now I don't keep a documented ledger as I know some here do, so my impressions of the season are just recollections. Back right at ice-off just before the camp season started, we did pretty well for the first 3 weeks on the SC side. In June we started getting them on the Strawberry side, but it never seemed to be fast fishing. We got some, but limit days were far and few between. Then came July - the weather got hot and fishing really slowed down. Now we are into August and with the monsoon rains, it has started to cool down. Last week I saw a surface temp at 75*. This morning it was 67.5*. It may be my imagination or maybe I am learning some new tricks, but it seems however slowly, the fishing might be picking up a little. 

I can't be sure why this season has been overall slower than previous seasons, water/environmental temps?, but I pulled the kokanee stocking reports for Strawberry as follows.

2016   405,996
2017   462,970
2018   295,706
2019   345,712
2020   361,099
2021   375,813
2022   449,595

If the kokanee mature in 3-4 years, we can see that the stocking numbers support the off year. I am not sure why the Division stocked over 25% less in 2018 and not much better in 2019. Wonder if this was a hatchery problem? or they divided the stock to other new waters? or what the reason was? I'm sure there are many guesses. Any information from the DNR would be great - did they expect a down year, etc? I guess the positive take away here is 2026 should be a banner year. 

This is how many kokes are being stocked in Jordanelle during that same time:

2016 152,234
2017   163,360
2018   247,355
2019   206,883
2020   132,082
2021   121,475
2022   160,528

East canyon

2019   10,024
2020   16,965
2021    15,061
2022    19,024

Lost creek

2020   12,528
2021    12,320
2022    12,461

Rockport

2020   30,045
2021   24,087
2022   30,174

These numbers do not include Fish lake, it was added about the same time but adding them all up and subtracting them from the kokes that could have gone to Strawberry and the Gorge could explain some of the down turn in numbers at those two lakes.

Those numbers do suggest the extras went to Jordanelle. I wonder how much more it costs to increase the egg harvest and produce 20% more? These all would be great questions for the DNR. I don't want anyone to misunderstand my questions for the DNR. I think that they do a great job with their kokanee project and most of their fisheries efforts.

(08-06-2022, 02:45 AM)wiperhunter2 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-05-2022, 10:47 PM)brookie Wrote: [ -> ]I have been on Strawberry probably more this season than any previous. Started our long-term camp May 16 and my last paid day is Aug 7 (Sunday). Actually I already moved the trailer and boat over to the boondock camping area above Mud Creek today to get a little more time. 

Thinking back on the season, I have been asked many times "how's the fishing" and by far my most common answer this year was SLOW. Now I don't keep a documented ledger as I know some here do, so my impressions of the season are just recollections. Back right at ice-off just before the camp season started, we did pretty well for the first 3 weeks on the SC side. In June we started getting them on the Strawberry side, but it never seemed to be fast fishing. We got some, but limit days were far and few between. Then came July - the weather got hot and fishing really slowed down. Now we are into August and with the monsoon rains, it has started to cool down. Last week I saw a surface temp at 75*. This morning it was 67.5*. It may be my imagination or maybe I am learning some new tricks, but it seems however slowly, the fishing might be picking up a little. 

I can't be sure why this season has been overall slower than previous seasons, water/environmental temps?, but I pulled the kokanee stocking reports for Strawberry as follows.

2016   405,996
2017   462,970
2018   295,706
2019   345,712
2020   361,099
2021   375,813
2022   449,595

If the kokanee mature in 3-4 years, we can see that the stocking numbers support the off year. I am not sure why the Division stocked over 25% less in 2018 and not much better in 2019. Wonder if this was a hatchery problem? or they divided the stock to other new waters? or what the reason was? I'm sure there are many guesses. Any information from the DNR would be great - did they expect a down year, etc? I guess the positive take away here is 2026 should be a banner year. 

This is how many kokes are being stocked in Jordanelle during that same time:

2016    152,234
2017   163,360
2018   247,355
2019   206,883
2020   132,082
2021   121,475
2022   160,528

East canyon

2019   10,024
2020   16,965
2021    15,061
2022    19,024

Lost creek

2020   12,528
2021    12,320
2022    12,461

Rockport

2020   30,045
2021   24,087
2022   30,174

These numbers do not include Fish lake, with was added about the the same time but adding them all up and subtracting them from the kokes that could have gone to Strawberry and the Gorge could explain some of the down turn in numbers at those two lakes.

the dwr also sells kokanee out of state i think colorado is buying most of the them , the government can't resist selling them rather than stocking them in our local lakes

Thanks guys for the information. I really do not want this thread to turn into a bash the DNR. I really think they do a pretty good job with the resources. I suspect we receive fish from other states (purchased or traded as well). My goal here was to explore the reasons for the slower than past years for kokanee on Strawberry. Management strategies change year to year and water to water. Looking at the stocking reports was something I could do online but I don't know the whole picture or process.

Brookie I agree with what you are saying the DWR dose a good job with the tools and funding they have.

I fish the Gorge almost every week and I am seeing the same thing you are seeing at Strawberry,  the season started of strong and has slowed as the season went one. The quality of the fish is really good. Guess it has to do with less mouths to feed.

If you look at the planting reports going four years back the amount of kokes planted in the Gorge was low.

I think this was the time frame the DWR started putting kokes in new lakes and this resulted in the lower numbers in some lakes because the fish went in to new lakes.

This is just my two cents.

Here's a summary of all kokanee stocking over the last 10 years.

(08-06-2022, 08:27 PM)Dunn13 Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a summary of all kokanee stocking over the last 10 years.

That's interesting, between 2017 anf 2018 the stocking numbers at The Berry went from 462,970 to 295,706, that along could explain what is happening this year, if the spawning kokes are 4 years old. The Gorge appears to have more steady numbers. Also, if Fish lake were not such a long drive that would be good option, they have consistantly stocked higher number there than in Jordanelle.

Hey D13, great summary. It does give a more complete picture. WH2, yes that is exactly what I saw when I posted this thread. The problem is I do not know the overall decisions at the DNR. I was hoping for a DNR representative that really knows the program to maybe chime in and give us the decision thinking. I have heard that a new strain of kokanee that spawns in the lake have been planted - maybe that strain was expected to have better natural recruitment and thus make up the difference. Maybe another fish species needed more resources in 2018 - since my personal point of interest is in kokanee, I may not have taken other fish species into account (of course the division does not make decisions around my personal preferences).
Anyway I do have confidence that the DNR people do their very best to provide great fisheries for us all. I have felt the kokanee program has been stellar for quite a few years, so a down year is just part of the process.
Thanks all for the research and input. Thanks to the DNR for making all the data available for search.

(08-06-2022, 09:25 PM)brookie Wrote: [ -> ]Hey D13, great summary. It does give a more complete picture. WH2, yes that is exactly what I saw when I posted this thread. The problem is I do not know the overall decisions at the DNR. I was hoping for a DNR representative that really knows the program to maybe chime in and give us the decision thinking. I have heard that a new strain of kokanee that spawns in the lake have been planted - maybe that strain was expected to have better natural recruitment and thus make up the difference. Maybe another fish species needed more resources in 2018 - since my personal point of interest is in kokanee, I may not have taken other fish species into account (of course the division does not make decisions around my personal preferences).
Anyway I do have confidence that the DNR people do their very best to provide great fisheries for us all. I have felt the kokanee program has been stellar for quite a few years, so a down year is just part of the process.
Thanks all for the research and input. Thanks to the DNR for making all the data available for search.

I'll send Chris Penne a Email with a link to this thread, maybe Monday, when he gets to work, he will comment, if he isn't too busy.

(08-06-2022, 09:32 PM)wiperhunter2 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-06-2022, 09:25 PM)brookie Wrote: [ -> ]Hey D13, great summary. It does give a more complete picture. WH2, yes that is exactly what I saw when I posted this thread. The problem is I do not know the overall decisions at the DNR. I was hoping for a DNR representative that really knows the program to maybe chime in and give us the decision thinking. I have heard that a new strain of kokanee that spawns in the lake have been planted - maybe that strain was expected to have better natural recruitment and thus make up the difference. Maybe another fish species needed more resources in 2018 - since my personal point of interest is in kokanee, I may not have taken other fish species into account (of course the division does not make decisions around my personal preferences).
Anyway I do have confidence that the DNR people do their very best to provide great fisheries for us all. I have felt the kokanee program has been stellar for quite a few years, so a down year is just part of the process.
Thanks all for the research and input. Thanks to the DNR for making all the data available for search.

I'll send Chris Penne a Email with a link to this thread, maybe Monday, when he gets to work, he will comment, if he isn't too busy.

I got an auto reply already, guess he will be out of the office until the 17th of Aug.

Oh well, heading back up Sunday evening to get back after them Monday morning.

I have heard that a new strain of kokanee that spawns in the lake have been planted - maybe that strain was expected to have better natural recruitment and thus make up the difference.
I read that in Canada they use this strain. It lives longer and grows bigger.! I'm all in favor. I also would live to see king salmon in stead of cutthroat. We can dream can't we?

(08-06-2022, 11:12 PM)doitall5000 Wrote: [ -> ]I have heard that a new strain of kokanee that spawns in the lake have been planted - maybe that strain was expected to have better natural recruitment and thus make up the difference.
I read that in Canada they use this strain. It lives longer and grows bigger.!  I'm all in favor. I also would live to see king salmon in stead of cutthroat.  We can dream can't we?

Hi Everyone, my name is Randy Oplinger and I am the Coldwater Sportfish Coordinator with the DWR.  I know that you contacted Chris Penne about this thread.  Chris is taking some well deserved time off and he asked me to respond to this thread.

All of you are asking some good questions about our management of kokanee.  There is a lot that goes into how we stock kokanee.  We have two kokanee egg sources in Utah, Strawberry and Flaming Gorge.  We take the eggs from wild fish into our hatcheries, raise them over winter, and stock them out late April/early May of the following year.  Our managers request a specific number of kokanee to be stocked into their waters.  Our goal is to stock the number that our managers request but we often stock some number other than that requested number.  That is because we try to take the right number of eggs to have the right number of kokanee to stock the following spring.  In reality, we sometimes have disease issues that come up in our hatcheries that kill more fish than anticiapted that leads us to fall short on stocking our intended number.  Conversely, sometimes fish survive better than anticipated and we end up with surplus fish.  All of this leads to variation in the number of fish that are stocked.

I'll give you an example.  The kokanee eggs that we collected fall 2020 had one of the lowest hatch rates on record.  That left us short on having enough fish to meet our stocking requests in 2021 and we had to reduce stocking into a number of waters.  We responded by taking more eggs in 2021 and then ended up with one our highest hatch rates on record and we ended up exceeding our stocking requests in 2022.  

One thing that was mentioned in the thread was related to the cost of raising more kokanee.  It turns out that we are egg limited with kokanee.  We feel that we are taking as many eggs as possible out of Strawberry and Flaming Gorge and that we would harm these fisheries if we took more eggs.  So we are not looking at taking more kokanee eggs at this time.  This means that our stocking requests are pretty flat right now.  It also means that if we want to stock more fish into one water then we have to cut fish from elsewhere.  You noted a case in 2018 where we stocked fewer into Strawberry and put more into Jordanelle.  That was the swap we made.  We felt that we had more than an adequate number of kokanee in Strawberry and were still trying to get Jordanelle established.  We wanted to put more into Jordanelle but to get there we needed to take some from somewhere else and our data indicated that Strawberry had a strong enough population that it could take a stocking cut.

I mentioned that we are egg limited for kokanee.  We are beginning to look into a third egg source so we can begin taking more eggs.  We have to do a bunch of disease testing before we can set up another egg source so it'll be a few years before that happens.  We are currently in the process of evaluating new sources.

A lot of what is being mentioned in the thread deals with what is called a "stock-recruit relationship".  In simple terms, that is the relationship between the number of fish we stock and the number of fish that are available for anglers to catch.  In theory, if we want more fish to be available for anglers then we stock more fish.  In reality, it doesn't work out as cleanly as that.  Kokanee in particular are a species that has a poor relationship between the number of fish stocked and the number available for anglers.  Other environmental factors (plankton, temperature, number of predators, etc.) play an important role in shaping the size of the population between we stock and 3-4 years later when the fish are large enough to be caught.  So, I'd say that the association between the number of kokanee we stock and your fishing success 3-4 years later is weak.  That association is stronger for other species.  

There was something brought up in the thread about our kokanee strains.   There is an early run kokanee salmon that typically (but not always) spawns in streams and a late run that typically (but not always) spawns in the lake itself.  We primarily spawn and take early run eggs because they seem to work best for us in Utah.  The only lake where we stock late run is Fish Lake.  We made that decision because the largest creek feeding Fish Lake is pretty small and we didn't think it could support a large population of creek spawning early run fish so we went with the lake spawning late run there.  With that said, we do stock a few early run into Fish Lake so people can see them spawn.

There was also something brought up about the sale of fish to other states.  We don't sell fish to other states.  We do trade fish from time to time.  We only do that after our stocking requests are met.  So, we make sure we are taking care of Utah before we send eggs to other states and when we do send eggs we are looking for something in return that benefits our anglers.  We have sent kokanee eggs to New Mexico in recent years.  They in return have sent us "super catchable" (14-16") rainbow trout.  We don't raise rainbow trout to that size in our hatcheries because they take two years to raise and if we raised them we would have to significantly cut back on other stocking to free up the space to raise fish for two years (we normally keep fish for up to a year so we can cycle out our hatcheries annually).   

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks Randy for your informative response. It’s always nice to hear the ideas and reasons for the fisheries program. I appreciate the time and transparency of your report. I am back out fishing this morning. Today has been lots of cutts and no kokes, though several of my friends out have had more success. Always appreciate the work and care you folks put into our Utah fisheries.

Randy,

Thank you for your thorough response. I have one question about your report but I don't know how to reach you directly. You stated: 

"[font="Open Sans", sans-serif]It turns out that we are egg limited with kokanee.  We feel that we are taking as many eggs as possible out of Strawberry and Flaming Gorge and that we would harm these fisheries if we took more eggs."[/font]

[font="Open Sans", sans-serif]Can you explain how taking more eggs would harm the fishery? If the spawners are going to die anyway, it would seem that taking all the eggs possible would not harm anything unless you need a certain number of fish to spawn naturally for some reason? I'd be interested to know the factors limiting the number of eggs you can take without harm.[/font]

[font="Open Sans", sans-serif]Thanks[/font]

Randy-How come the DWR is not planting any Kokes in Porcupine Res??

(08-08-2022, 06:54 PM)Panchodog Wrote: [ -> ]Randy-How come the DWR is not planting any Kokes in Porcupine Res??

I can answer that question but I'm in no way speaking for Randy. 
Porcupine already has natural spawning/reproduction in abundance, as a matter of fact, they are so successful there that the limit is 12 kokes. No other lake in Utah has a limit that high for kokes and the reason for it is clear, there are too many kokes in there and the DWR are trying to get anglers to come there and thin them out. The problem is they are so small not many people want to fish there, even with a 12 koke limit. Because of this, they will never plant kokes there, unless things change, at least that is my believe.

(08-08-2022, 07:23 PM)wiperhunter2 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-08-2022, 06:54 PM)Panchodog Wrote: [ -> ]Randy-How come the DWR is not planting any Kokes in Porcupine Res??

I can answer that question but I'm in no way speaking for Randy. 
Porcupine already has natural spawning/reproduction in abundance, as a matter of fact, they are so successful there that the limit is 12 kokes. No other lake in Utah has a limit that high for kokes and the reason for it is clear, there are too many kokes in there and the DWR are trying to get anglers to come there and thin them out. The problem is they are so small not many people want to fish there, even with a 12 koke limit. Because of this, they will never plant kokes there, unless things change, at least that is my believe.

Yes, wiperhunter2's response is accurate.  We have really good natural reproduction at Porcupine and there isn't a need for stocking.  In fact, the reason why we have an expanded kokanee limit at Porcupine is because we think there are more kokanee in Porcupine than ideal and we are looking to have anglers harvest additional fish.  We don't stock because there is good natural reproduction and we don't want to stock additional kokanee on top of an already large population.