(01-06-2023, 02:32 PM)Bduck Wrote: [ -> ]I understand some boats are a real PITA when comes down to winterizing. My boat is on 24/7 standby since it stays in my garage without a cover. I have a cover for it finding it doesn't do much good when it comes to project management or even an occasional mesmerize daydream. 
These days any day fishing is better than a day at WOKE. I've been accused and still to this day of using foul language when mentioning the other 4 letter word known as WO*K. 
Now now don't go getting nasty reminding us of the price we have to pay to get to that eventual dream state you get to live in... Just hoping the years of trying to save for retirement actually allow me to live the dream later on... hope it doesn't all disappear before I get to enjoy some of it... Later J
(01-06-2023, 02:32 PM)Bduck Wrote: [ -> ]I understand some boats are a real PITA when comes down to winterizing. My boat is on 24/7 standby since it stays in my garage without a cover. I have a cover for it finding it doesn't do much good when it comes to project management or even an occasional mesmerize daydream. These days any day fishing is better than a day at WOKE. I've been accused and still to this day of using foul language when mentioning the other 4 letter word known as WO*K.
Having a garage/shop to house my boat alone is the goal. Nice rig.
I really don't think some people understand the gravity of what's going on with the GSL. It's been around for thousands of years and has survived its share of droughts. What it HASN'T had to deal with is 3.5 million people slurping up and over-allocating water from its tributaries, water-intensive alfalfa and other crops grown in a desert, and industry all vying for what little water there is. Put these factors together with a 20 year drought and we are where we are.
The lake is in serious trouble. Salinity levels are so high now that brine fly reproduction is almost non-existent. What adult flies that are left are for the most part small and unhealthy - definitely not in a state where reproduction is possible. Brine flies make up over 85% of the food web for migrating birds that pass through the GSL during migration. Brine shrimp are showing signs of significant stress too. If conditions continue downward, they have a couple years and they will be where the brine flies are at. They make up the remaining 15% of the food web. If these two organisms collapse, there goes the wildlife that depend on them. World reknown duck hunting on recreational birding? Kiss that good bye. Let me reiterate - the brine flies are already on their way out as we speak.
A low GSL reduces the amount of lake effect snow that our ski resorts receive. Like that light, dry powder? Kiss that good bye as the GSL continues to shrink. And all the related tourist economy that goes with it. Yeah that goes too as our skiing quality deteriorates.
A dry lake bed will cause (and is causing now to a lesser degree) respiratory issues as dust high in heavy metals is picked up and distributed along the Wasatch Front. Do you like your health? Well, kiss that good bye too - especially if you already are immune compromised in some way, shape or form.
A GSL in decline or abject collapse affects every one of us. There is no way around it, and to continue to deny there is a problem is like an ostrich putting it's head in the sand. ANYTHING we can do to get more water into that lake and stabilize what's going on is a GOOD thing. If it's 23,000 acre feet at first, well let's start there. The lake needs 2 million acre feet! Maybe we get rid of front lawns, perhaps we install more efficient toilets, plumbing, water metering, rotating to more water fuel-efficient crops. There are so many areas where we CAN improve but it takes some COLLECTIVE will to do it. Israel has a similar climate to Utah's, yet we use 5 times the water over here. Maybe that even means that we may have to sacrifice some of the water in our reservoirs and potentially fishing quality along with it. If we continue to be selfish and self-serving in the short term, our long term ramifications are not pleasant whatsoever. It's time to be up and doing...NOW.
I really don't think some people understand the gravity of what's going on with the GSL. It's been around for thousands of years and has survived its share of droughts. What it HASN'T had to deal with is 3.5 million people slurping up and over-allocating water from its tributaries, water-intensive alfalfa and other crops grown in a desert, and industry all vying for what little water there is. Put these factors together with a 20 year drought and we are where we are.
The lake is in serious trouble. Salinity levels are so high now that brine fly reproduction is almost non-existent. What adult flies that are left are for the most part small and unhealthy - definitely not in a state where reproduction is possible. Brine flies make up over 85% of the food web for migrating birds that pass through the GSL during migration. Brine shrimp are showing signs of significant stress too. If conditions continue downward, they have a couple years and they will be where the brine flies are at. They make up the remaining 15% of the food web. If these two organisms collapse, there goes the wildlife that depend on them. World reknown duck hunting on recreational birding? Kiss that good bye. Let me reiterate - the brine flies are already on their way out as we speak.
A low GSL reduces the amount of lake effect snow that our ski resorts receive. Like that light, dry powder? Kiss that good bye as the GSL continues to shrink. And all the related tourist economy that goes with it. Yeah that goes too as our skiing quality deteriorates.
A dry lake bed will cause (and is causing now to a lesser degree) respiratory issues as dust high in heavy metals is picked up and distributed along the Wasatch Front. Do you like your health? Well, kiss that good bye too - especially if you already are immune compromised in some way, shape or form.
A GSL in decline or abject collapse affects every one of us. There is no way around it, and to continue to deny there is a problem is like an ostrich putting it's head in the sand. ANYTHING we can do to get more water into that lake and stabilize what's going on is a GOOD thing. If it's 23,000 acre feet at first, well let's start there. The lake needs 2 million acre feet! Maybe we get rid of front lawns, perhaps we install more efficient toilets, plumbing, water metering, rotating to more water fuel-efficient crops. There are so many areas where we CAN improve but it takes some COLLECTIVE will to do it. Israel has a similar climate to Utah's, yet we use 5 times the water over here. Maybe that even means that we may have to sacrifice some of the water in our reservoirs and potentially fishing quality along with it. If we continue to be selfish and self-serving in the short term, our long term ramifications are not pleasant whatsoever. It's time to be up and doing...NOW.
Why that posted twice, I have no idea. Maybe the website thought it was that important? ??
Thanks MW for sharing some of your views and facts on our declining GSL...I couldn't agree more...99+% of our inhabitants of the Wasatch Front/GSL region have never even seen our (used to be) Great Salt Lake, and what's out of sight is out of mind...meaning they don't care...Should we all be more Conservation Minded? Use less water on our lawns, fewer baths and showers, wash our vehicles less frequently, drip irrigation in our gardens and shrubbery, not get water in our restaurants, etc. etc.??...Maybe, but did you know that "saved water" isn't making it out to help our GSL?..it's staying in our reservoirs!...just staying there to feed the thirsty requirements of our constantly growing communities, including agriculture (think excessive water requirements for alfalfa), massive building construction all over our valley, North to South, East and West...much more of course, all demanding water from our reservoirs...NOT reaching our ever depleting GSL....MW described some of the serious results of a "mini" Salt Lake..I don't believe our state politicians or business leaders are willing or able to stop our high population growth trend..I saw it get serious about 40 or so years ago when our governor was heavily promoting new businesses to come to Utah...could've started before that, but that's when I saw it..So yes, good businesses are here, and the people will keep coming..We know from past experience that we cannot depend on a reliable snowpack for current or growing population's water needs..I think getting water to our GSL will take DRASTIC measures..hopefully not draining our reservoirs (but not creating more)..and maybe the tremendously expensive aquaduct from the Pacific isn't so outlandish, or a fresh water aquaduct from the lower flood regions of the South or East connecting directly to some of our reservoirs or even the GSL...I know nothing like this will happen in my lifetime, but for younger generations, I sure hope SOMETHING big happens to save, and restore our Great Salt Lake...IMO, of course...
Good point Jmor on water not getting to the GSL...even when people are conserving more. I don't remember what Gov Cox said about how much water Utahns "conserved" last year, but it was in the millions of gallons. Unfortunately, that water is largely not getting to the GSL...it's being "saved" for other development projects! Hardly the reason that the water was being conserved for in the first place.
I heard it well on another forum that really the only ways water is getting to the GSL right now are through the shiz canals or through the stormwater system. So either flush your toilets more or water your lawns excessively. Other than mother nature putting water directly into the system, these are about the only ways that water is getting to the lake. As such, there need to be major changes to how water is allocated. All that "saved" water that Gov Cox talked about should be mandated to go to the lake through targeted releases from our reservoir storage.. To this point, no such thing is happening.
Sorry I totally disagree with your save the salt lake, there are so many holes in their argument that are totally angled to their agenda to save their mineral, brine shrimp or skiing business. I don’t blame them, but painting the farmers as the big culprit is ridiculous. Do you know how many acres that used to be farmed are all urban communities now? You claim that the brine fly and shrimp make up 100% of the birds diet, I’m pretty sure there are many of those bird species that are in other flyway areas that eat something besides brine flies or shrimp. You claim that the ski resorts will be ruined with the lack of lake effect snow, yet KSL just published an article last week that showed 3 of the top five snow falls at ski resorts were in Cottonwood Canyon. You claim the increased dust will ruin everyone’s health, yet I’m pretty sure the area of non lake bed desert is many many times greater than the exposed lake bed. So restoring the lake will do little to make a difference in dust. Pretty sure it will be a very small difference if the numbers aren’t scewed to prove a point there will be little difference. Not sure what their agenda is other than taking from the legal rights folks to serve their agenda. And before you try the angle of the farmers don’t deserve all that water remember that property rights is what has made America great, here you have the right to own property and you can make of it what you choose. So far we can be free and not have the King take our property out of jealousy or greed. So before you push to have government stealing private property think long and hard about what you’re advocating. Just my take as a farmer.
Oh and one other point to consider farmers are doing what we can to save water, our canal company took steps to pressurize our system which has saved about 2/3 of the water we used to use. This has caused our water bill to go from $25 a share to $130 per acre foot of water. Which the farmers are footing the cost, perhaps your water hungry save the GSL should put your money where the whining is and help pay our higher costs. All I’m saying is get off the picking on the alfalfa growers, we have the right to the water and to make a living, we are conservation minded since the steps we have taken to save water has resulted in power bills that make wasting water very unprofitable. The weather pattern will change and before long you will be wanting to start the pumps again. Just the way the cycles go. Have a little patience things will change soon.
Skunked Again-
I appreciate your opinion and respect you and every other farmer out there. The nation should be grateful for everything that farmers do and for the risks that they take. That said, the cold, hard fact is that 70% of water use in Utah is agriculture related. Water intensive crops like alfalfa are grown in a desert environment which may have been OK 20 years ago, but with population demands and drought, the excess water that used to make it to the GSL just isn't there anymore. Farmers should be able to continue with their livelihoods, but programs aimed at switching to less water intensive plants should be required to be phased in over time. Not a complete turnover in a few years, but I believe modest changes (maybe 5% per year of total acreage) would give time for farmers to adjust and not have the rug pulled out from under them. Farmers should also be allowed to let water flow downstream as a "beneficial use" to the GSL of their water rights, and I believe this change is in the works now.
As to brine flies and bird species eating other food sources elsewhere, sure. But remember, we are not talking about Greenwing teal or plovers on the east coast. We are talking about Greenwing teal and plovers in the intermountain region where the GSL is their biggest and most important stopover point during migration or nesting area in the spring. These birds have evolved to depend on the lake and its brine flies and shrimp for food. Sure there are other sources but they pale in comparison to those two. Take them away and the food web collapses and this is already underway with the flies. No food, no birds.
The GSL is a terminal lake meaning that all the crap that we pump into it and its tributaries gets deposited right there. Sure there is more exposed non- lake bed desert land surrounding the actual lakebed, but contaminants from mining, industry, agriculture have been, and are, deposited on the lake bed itself from GSL tributaries. As that lakebed dries and then the wind blows, dust laden with accumulate AND CONCENTRATED heavy metals is picked up by the wind and deposited along the Wasatch Front and beyond. Those and other toxic chemicals in the dust are known detractors to human health. Just like you wouldn't want to inject arsenic, you don't want to breath it because it's toxic. All of that exposed lakebed is a health issue in the works. Cover that lakebed with water and the issue largely goes away.
It's a known fact that lake effect snow is partly what makes the snow in Utah so special. No lake, no lake effect, and lower quality snow. Will it "ruin" the resorts? Probably not, but it will not help them, or the industry at all. Lake effect is also responsible for snowfall totals along the Wasatch Front, including the Cottonwood Canyons, so not sure where you're going with that.
I get it, we all like to fish and it takes water to do so. I hate to think what it might take to get the lake back to just a stable position, but given the ecological and health issues, I can see that it can't just be business as usual anymore. Regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks, we don't live in the Utah of the 1980s, 1990s, etc. Water is finite and without serious changes in the ways we use and conserve it, we are on the way to serious consequences in the not too distant future. This isn't a global warming or climate change power grab - it's simple science and economics supply/demand staring us in the face.
For those that might be interested, here is a good read on some of the current events associated with the GSL.
Great Salt Lake set to vanish in 5 years, experts warn Utah lawmakers in dire report | KSL.com
https://www.ksl.com/article/50551165/gre...ire-report
(01-09-2023, 05:45 AM)MWScott72 Wrote: [ -> ]Skunked Again-
I appreciate your opinion and respect you and every other farmer out there. The nation should be grateful for everything that farmers do and for the risks that they take. That said, the cold, hard fact is that 70% of water use in Utah is agriculture related. Water intensive crops like alfalfa are grown in a desert environment which may have been OK 20 years ago, but with population demands and drought, the excess water that used to make it to the GSL just isn't there anymore. Farmers should be able to continue with their livelihoods, but programs aimed at switching to less water intensive plants should be required to be phased in over time. Not a complete turnover in a few years, but I believe modest changes (maybe 5% per year of total acreage) would give time for farmers to adjust and not have the rug pulled out from under them. Farmers should also be allowed to let water flow downstream as a "beneficial use" to the GSL of their water rights, and I believe this change is in the works now.
As to brine flies and bird species eating other food sources elsewhere, sure. But remember, we are not talking about Greenwing teal or plovers on the east coast. We are talking about Greenwing teal and plovers in the intermountain region where the GSL is their biggest and most important stopover point during migration or nesting area in the spring. These birds have evolved to depend on the lake and its brine flies and shrimp for food. Sure there are other sources but they pale in comparison to those two. Take them away and the food web collapses and this is already underway with the flies. No food, no birds.
The GSL is a terminal lake meaning that all the crap that we pump into it and its tributaries gets deposited right there. Sure there is more exposed non- lake bed desert land surrounding the actual lakebed, but contaminants from mining, industry, agriculture have been, and are, deposited on the lake bed itself from GSL tributaries. As that lakebed dries and then the wind blows, dust laden with accumulate AND CONCENTRATED heavy metals is picked up by the wind and deposited along the Wasatch Front and beyond. Those and other toxic chemicals in the dust are known detractors to human health. Just like you wouldn't want to inject arsenic, you don't want to breath it because it's toxic. All of that exposed lakebed is a health issue in the works. Cover that lakebed with water and the issue largely goes away.
It's a known fact that lake effect snow is partly what makes the snow in Utah so special. No lake, no lake effect, and lower quality snow. Will it "ruin" the resorts? Probably not, but it will not help them, or the industry at all. Lake effect is also responsible for snowfall totals along the Wasatch Front, including the Cottonwood Canyons, so not sure where you're going with that.
I get it, we all like to fish and it takes water to do so. I hate to think what it might take to get the lake back to just a stable position, but given the ecological and health issues, I can see that it can't just be business as usual anymore. Regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks, we don't live in the Utah of the 1980s, 1990s, etc. Water is finite and without serious changes in the ways we use and conserve it, we are on the way to serious consequences in the not too distant future. This isn't a global warming or climate change power grab - it's simple science and economics supply/demand staring us in the face.
For those that might be interested, here is a good read on some of the current events associated with the GSL.
Great Salt Lake set to vanish in 5 years, experts warn Utah lawmakers in dire report | KSL.com
https://www.ksl.com/article/50551165/gre...ire-report
Legislation to stop a drought or growth doesn't have a chance of Solving the problem. But many will see it as the first thing we should try. I would rather see not one drop of water make it to GSL. Spend the money on Dam after Dam to catch and hold water for Human use. I consider every drop that makes it to the Brine Shrimp holding pond to already be lost!
(01-09-2023, 04:36 AM)SkunkedAgain Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry I totally disagree with your save the salt lake, there are so many holes in their argument that are totally angled to their agenda to save their mineral, brine shrimp or skiing business. I don’t blame them, but painting the farmers as the big culprit is ridiculous. Do you know how many acres that used to be farmed are all urban communities now? You claim that the brine fly and shrimp make up 100% of the birds diet, I’m pretty sure there are many of those bird species that are in other flyway areas that eat something besides brine flies or shrimp. You claim that the ski resorts will be ruined with the lack of lake effect snow, yet KSL just published an article last week that showed 3 of the top five snow falls at ski resorts were in Cottonwood Canyon. You claim the increased dust will ruin everyone’s health, yet I’m pretty sure the area of non lake bed desert is many many times greater than the exposed lake bed. So restoring the lake will do little to make a difference in dust. Pretty sure it will be a very small difference if the numbers aren’t scewed to prove a point there will be little difference. Not sure what their agenda is other than taking from the legal rights folks to serve their agenda. And before you try the angle of the farmers don’t deserve all that water remember that property rights is what has made America great, here you have the right to own property and you can make of it what you choose. So far we can be free and not have the King take our property out of jealousy or greed. So before you push to have government stealing private property think long and hard about what you’re advocating. Just my take as a farmer.
Oh and one other point to consider farmers are doing what we can to save water, our canal company took steps to pressurize our system which has saved about 2/3 of the water we used to use. This has caused our water bill to go from $25 a share to $130 per acre foot of water. Which the farmers are footing the cost, perhaps your water hungry save the GSL should put your money where the whining is and help pay our higher costs. All I’m saying is get off the picking on the alfalfa growers, we have the right to the water and to make a living, we are conservation minded since the steps we have taken to save water has resulted in power bills that make wasting water very unprofitable. The weather pattern will change and before long you will be wanting to start the pumps again. Just the way the cycles go. Have a little patience things will change soon.
Plus 1, exactly what most of us think about this situation. Remember folks long before there was a GSL there was Lake Bonneville, that's where the salt flats came from, same thing as the GSL, if we were going to die as a result of the GSL going dry, I think we would be dead already. Our earth goes in cycles, things will change the other way but just because it doesn't happen when we want doesn't mean much.
Such an interesting discussion. I believe that there is a facility out by the GSL that was installed back in the late 70's to pump water OUT of the GSL. Those pumps are still in place !! GSL is the remnant of Lake Bonneville as is Utah Lake and Bear Lake !! Lake Bonneville drained north into Idaho when there was a earthquake several million years ago. The 3 remaining parts have survived from then to now and will be here long after we are gone !!
I find it interesting that the "environmental community" likes to go after farmers and complain about their use of "too much water". My Grandfather was an attorney in Southern Utah and spent the vast majority of time dealing with water law. He basically wrote a great deal of the water law of the state !! One thing he told me that has remained with me all these years is " if you don't have water, you ain't got sh*t". Most people in Utah have no idea how water is developed, dispersed, and used in the state, in the west. They turn on the tap and voila the water runs.
We can get all exercised about this, destroy our state economy ( agriculture is a HUGE part of it, more than tourism and skiing !! ), our food supply, and basically our way of life, OR we can be sensible and conserve our use of water, allow the natural flow into the GSL and not do STUPID things ( pumps etc !!). The GSL will take care of it's self much better than we can by micro managing it. It will be here LONG after we are gone and our puny attempts to "HELP" are futile !!
PS: If we need to conserve water, rather than destroying agriculture, lets get rid of golf courses that over use water during drought years !! Get rid of HOA's that require you to have a "green" lawn during the drought !! Stop cities from watering parking strips during drought !! Small things that will do no good, but the optics will be good !!
Sadly, you fall into the same trap as others who blame farmers when you say we should close golf courses. At least you admit that doing so will have no benefit. You are obviously unaware that golf course superintendents have done a great deal to minimize water use already. That fact is that if you close a golf course and building housing, water use on that acreage goes UP. Way up.
The above just shows why it is so difficult to find solutions for some problems. The "environmental community" (whatever that is. If I am both an avid hunter and fisherman, but support a healthy GSL, does that somehow lump me or anyone similar into the "environmentalist" moniker? I think not!) points fingers at farmers, farmers point fingers at environmental and governmental folks, golf course superintendents point fingers at farmers, etc, etc. Everyone is already doing supposedly everything they can and no one wants to take substantive responsibility or do more than they're already doing. No wonder the Colorado River is such as mess. Upper states pointing at lower states and vice versa, Indians caught in the middle and still the flows go down and no substantive solutions are agreed upon to actually fix the problem.
I would take an all-inclusive approach. Water law needs to be changed to allow flow into the GSL as a beneficial use, farmers should continue to be required to shift away from water intensive crops and use best technology, the public should have to foot its share of the burden that farmers face, front lawns and park strips should be banned on all new construction and requirements to phase out existing front lawns and park strips implemented, low flow plumbing should be mandatory on all new construction and phased requirements for existing fixtures should be i.emented, maybe there shouldn't be as many golf courses in a desert state and what courses there are must find ways to conserve water, etc. THEN, when all those water savings are accumulated, there should be requirements that those savings must be deposited into the bank...er GSL and not just go to the next development project.
Utah's population was less than 1.5 million in 1980. In 43 years, it has gone to 3.68 million. What worked in 1980 doesn't fly now. Hoping that we get more moisture is nice, and I have no doubt that things will change cyclically at some point, but when, to use a metaphor, someone is on life support, the last thing you do if you want them to have a chance at survival before they are recovered enough, is to take them off. The GSL is on borrowed time at the present. I don't want to look back in 30 years and know that I could have done something to stop it instead of just "hoping" for someone or something else to stabilize it.
If you want to look at a wonderful case study of over allocation of a body of water and it's after effects, take a look at what's happened to the Aral Sea in Asia. That is what waits for us if we don't all start pulling together to fix the problem.
Your penultimate paragraph points at the problem. Unfortunately, there is no solution to it.
In between long periods of living in Utah, I lived 20 years in Arizona...10 years each in Tucson and Phoenix. Now those were REAL desert cities. Yeah, they had golf courses...but with grass varieties that could live with a lot less water and care. Ditto for the big companies (and churches) that had grass lawns. Less grass and more "natural" desert landscape and drip irrigation. And there were no snow capped mountains to provide annual runoff. Most of the water came from a very few reservoirs...and from piped in Colorado River water. Down there managing water was a religion and a harsh law.
Whenever I am heading out on an early morning fishing trip here in Utah I am amazed at all of the huge expanses of grass being watered virtually every day...even during or just after a rain storm. And in every neighborhood you can see water running down gutters and into the sewer system from over-watering lawns or water being otherwise wasted.
I can only imagine the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth if a few common sense water conservation measures were enacted here in Utah. "But...but...but...I just got my new riding mower." Everybody wants to save the GSL, but not if it impacts their water wasteful standard of living.
Look south to Las Vegas. They are literally on the verge of becoming a ghost town if Lake Mead gets any lower. We ain't that bad...yet. But who knows what wonderful weather patterns the future may hold?
Does WB still have a lot of open water in and outside the north marina?
Dang… I was hoping for an update on willard conditions and got down a rabbit hole of this discussion.
I will share my two cents, my buddies from high school from over 25 years ago have a text group and who all have different opinions any where from super liberal to super Q, can all agree on one thing. If you think politicians are corrupt, you need to meet the water managers.
Any update on Willard is appreciated
(01-14-2023, 04:24 AM)Redrebel Wrote: [ -> ]Dang… I was hoping for an update on willard conditions and got down a rabbit hole of this discussion.
This is a classic case of hijacking a thread. I'm surprised even the mods ran with it. 
Oh well, no harm! 
(01-14-2023, 02:17 PM)Bduck Wrote: [ -> ] (01-14-2023, 04:24 AM)Redrebel Wrote: [ -> ]Dang… I was hoping for an update on willard conditions and got down a rabbit hole of this discussion.
This is a classic case of hijacking a thread. I'm surprised even the mods ran with it. Oh well, no harm!
In years past we would have shut it down pretty quick but times have changed and unless the OP complains we tend to let them play their course, unless it turn really political, then we have to shut it down. When you started this thread, I never would have imagined it would go this direction.
(01-14-2023, 04:02 AM)danell Wrote: [ -> ]Does WB still have a lot of open water in and outside the north marina?
It is totally open now.
Water level is even raising.