What are your opinions on these two scenerio's?
Situation 1. At Causey, you have 4 kokes. Do you keep fishing, planning on releasing anything else or do you go home?
Situation 2. At Rockport, you have 4 rainbows and 10 perch. Do you keep fishing trying to catch perch and releasing the trout, or do you go home?
I had this discusion today at work. The way I read the proc, (and my current practice) for situation 1 you are done. You have your limit and you cannot fish anymore even if you just plan to release everything else.
For situation 2, you could still fish for perch because you have not filled your limit for the day, eventhough there is a good chance you will get some trout. For me personally I leave one fish shy of the limit (when I'm keeping), so I can still fish for trout without any heartache from the DWR.
What are the rules for this situation, and what do you all do????
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I asked that first question of the ranger at causey on saturday when one of the students hit his limit. He said he was done fishing for the day because he might injure another fish and that would put him over his limit.
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We had this same discussion on the UDWR website a few months ago. I still maintain that you could continue to fish in either scenario. If you are going to be required to stop fishing because you might injure a fish that would not be legal to keep (either over your limit, or in violation of length or species limitations) you then could not fish at any water that has special regulations.
For example: Strawberry. What if you injure a cutthroat that is in the slot? You've killed a fish that you cannot keep! I guess you had better not fish there.
Or what if you've got two cutts under the slot, and one over? You've got your limit of cutts. Can you still fish? Hoping that you'll catch a bow or a koke? Or are you through for the day.
Minersville. What if you hook a trout that isn't over 22 inches long, and it is injured by the hook? You can't legally keep it. So I guess you'd better not fish there either.
The Strawberry tributaries that are open to catch and release fishing only. What if one of the fish you catch is injured? You can't keep it. So you'd better not fish there either.
How about Utah Lake? Well if you catch a June Sucker you cannot keep it. What if you've injured it? I guess you'd better stay away from there too.
The list goes on an on and on.....
I say, you're not in violation of a limit until you have in your possession a fish that exceeds the limit. You are allowed to release any fish that doesn't meet the size, species, or possession limit. It's in the proclamation.
Fishrmn
I got into it over this issue with a fish cop one day.
My old man and I had been fishing on one lake that morning and the old man just wanted a limit of trout to eat. so, we got the limit and left.
I wasnt done for the day so I headed back out to another lake to do some catch and release fishing.
A fish cop checked my liscense and asked how the fishing for the day was.
In our conversation I told him I had been fishing that morning and we limited out.
Boy did he go kookoo bananas. He wanted me to leave immediatley.
I contended that I had no fish in my possession beyond my daily limit and had no intention of keeping any more trout for the day. In fact I was fishing for a totally different species at the time. But he felt that since there were also trout in the lake that I was in some sort of violation.
In the end I told the guy to go ahead and give me a ticket for any laws I had broken. apparently I hadnt broken any since he grumbled away without giving me any ticket. I went on my way fishing for bass and had a good time.
Some of those guys are a little on the crazy side but theres some real down to earth guys as well. Its just luck of the draw on who you get. I say if you have a limit of trout and want to walleye fish, anybody who decides to give you crap about it abuses thier authority.
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James,
I stand corrected, the legal definition of take is "hunt, pursue, catch, capture, possess, angle, seine, trap or kill any protected wildlife" or "attempt any action referred to in the first sentence". So, if you have caught and kept your limit, you are done fishing for that species.
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In the end I told the guy to go ahead and give me a ticket for any laws I had broken. apparently I hadnt broken any since he grumbled away without giving me any ticket. I went on my way fishing for bass and had a good time.
Some of those guys are a little on the crazy side but theres some real down to earth guys as well. Its just luck of the draw on who you get. I say if you have a limit of trout and want to walleye fish, anybody who decides to give you crap about it abuses thier authority.[/reply]
I maintain that you could also fish for trout, as long as you release all of the fish that you catch. If that isn't legal, how do you allow the catch and release only regulations at some of our waters? You can't keep any, so how can you continue to fish there? I would like to see a regulation that would require the same tackle and techniques restrictions as the artificial flies and lures only waters after you have a limit in your possession.
That way someone isn't as likely to gut hook a fish while using powerbait, or worms, or something similar. That would at least reduce the possiblity of injuring the fish that you have to release.
Fishrmn
Good question. Section IV, part C, paragraph 4 states a person may not take more than one bag limit in any one day. Take is defined in the proc as hunt, pursue, catch, capture, possess, angle, seine, trap or kill. It seems to me that if you have 4 trout/salmon on the ice, and pull one more out, you are in violation of the law. Just because people do it at Bear Lake, that doesn't make it legal. Releasing foul hooked fish may be legal, but it isn't ethical. I agree with Elkaholic, keep one shy of the limit, then there's no problem. I just hope others will use proper catch and release methods; remove barbs, use artificial lures only, don't use trebel hooks, handle the fish as little as possible, keep them in the water if possible, etc. We can only control ourselves, but we can educate others.
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The law doesn't stop anyone from continuing to fish. There is absolutely no reason to spot fishing if you don't want to. Fish cops might grumble, because they expect the worse. A few idiots keep fishing and keep them, taking a chance to get away with it. They make them question the rest of us who legally catch and release even if a limit is sitting right next to us.
One thing to remember though, is most catch and release waters are artificial only. This helps the survival rate. I'd say use a little common sense and caution (ethics side of things) when you continue on lakes you can use real bait.
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Okay, you can't keep any fish at the four or five waters that are artificial flies and lures only, and catch and release only. When you catch a fish, you have taken a fish, because you have either hunted, pursued, caught, captured, possessed, angled, seined, trapped, or killed it. But you cannot keep any fish there. Are you in compliance, or are you in violation?
Section IV, part C, paragraph (3) says:
Fish not meeting the size, bag or species provisions on specified waters shall be returned to the water immediately.
So, if I reel in the fifth trout of the day, I shall release it, and still be in compliance of the regulations.
Paragraph (1)(a) says: Trout, salmon and grayling that are not immediately released and are held in possession, dead or alive, are included in the person's bag and possession limit.
So, if I catch it, and immediately release it, it isn't in my bag or possession limit.
Who's got the right answer?
Fishrmn
[reply]Releasing foul hooked fish may be legal, but it isn't ethical.[/reply]
So, the ethical thing to do is keep a foul hooked fish, and break the law in the process? Naw, I'd have to say the ethical thing and the legal thing to do is to release any fish that is foul hooked. Even if could be included in your legal possession. After all, the ethical question revolves around the fact that the fish didn't volutarily take your hook into it's mouth if it's foul hooked. Therefore, you didn't catch him, you snagged him.
Fishrmn
I don't have the proc in front of me but I believe it says snagged fish must be returned.
The slot limit lends itself to punching an airbag and bottoming a fish if you have gut hooked him and he is not of legal size. After all, you don't want to be found with an illegal fish in your possession and ticketed. No explanation will get you out of a ticket.
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I had this exact question on tuesday when I fished rockport. I had a limit of trout in possession and wondered if I was done for the day. I did continue to fish trying for what I actually came there for, the perch. Didnt catch anything after my last trout I kept.
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I'd say in either case you should bag it once your small limit species has been kept. Theres simply to much risk of injury to continue. A risk not only of harming a fish but also to your wallet if by chance your forced to keep a badly injured fish. Not wise to continue in my book..
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That still doesn't answer the question of what do you do if you injure a fish that you cannot keep in the first place. How about a Bear Lake Cutt that has all of it's fins intact at Bear Lake? If you've injured the fish by catching it, you are still legally required to release it. Whether it is your first fish of the day, or if you already have a legal cutthroat in your possession or if you have two legal cutthroats in possession.
And you could have 3 trout, limit out on perch and still have one trout to go for a limit in the Rockport example.
Fishrmn
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That still doesn't answer the question of what do you do if you injure a fish that you cannot keep in the first place. How about a Bear Lake Cutt that has all of it's fins intact at Bear Lake? If you've injured the fish by catching it, you are still legally required to release it. Whether it is your first fish of the day, or if you already have a legal cutthroat in your possession or if you have two legal cutthroats in possession.
And you could have 3 trout, limit out on perch and still have one trout to go for a limit.
Fishrmn [/reply]
And this is the problem found when setting certain critira on the keeping or release of curtain species because there is NO straight forward answer where rules and ethics are involved. However, I would choose to abide by the law and risk the release of the injuried fish in hopes it survives. Witch btw, I feel isnt the elthical thing to do with a badly injuried creater but the DRW has given us NO way out in that type of situation.. On the other hand, I've found with a little TLC most fish can easily be released to battle another day..
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The DWR
cannot give you a way out in that situation. And here's the reason why. I know a guy who would go to Minersville. He would catch a fish, claim that it was injured and going to die anyway. It didn't matter to him that it wasn't big enough to keep, or that it wasn't hurt in any way, shape, or form. He used the excuse that the fish was going to die to kill it and to take it home. He felt like that gave him an out. He wouldn't stop at one, he'd take as many as he could catch. But he always said that the reason that he kept them is because they were going to die from their injuries anyway.
B.S. They were going to die because he was going to kill them and take them home. If he had wanted to make it look good, he could have ripped a gill raker or two on each of the fish, and thereby making the statement "They're hooked really bad, they're going to die anyway", true. If you allow someone to take a fish that is illegal to keep, just because it is injured, some people are going to injure the fish that they want to keep.
Quote:However, I would choose to abide by the law and risk the release of the injuried fish in hopes it survives.
So, by your own words it's okay to release an injured fish in hopes that it will survive. So why can't you continue to fish for perch, at Rockport, while you have your limit of trout? You're just as likely to catch a Bear Lake Cutthroat with all of it's fins intact at Bear Lake as you are to catch a trout at Rockport while fishing for perch. And even if they are injured, each one
must be released. And while we're at it, how about fishing at Jordanelle? After all, you could catch a small mouth bass that is over 12 inches. You can't keep it, even if it is injured. If it was your first fish of the day, would you reel in and call it a day? After all, you've exceeded your limit of smallies over 12 inches and each one that you catch could be injured.
What I'm trying to say is this: You should be able to continue to fish, as long as you do not keep any fish that
exceed your limit. As for the ethics of injuring fish and facing the dilemma of whether to release it or not, I would again suggest the following. I would like to see the law made to read that: After a person has kept a limit of any species of fish, that in order to continue to fish, he or she must use artificial flies and lures only. With the same limitations imposed on those waters that are currently artificial flies and lures only. Specifically, restricting the use of scented lures, jigs, flies, or added attractants. After all, if it is okay to fish in certain waters where you cannot keep any of the fish that you catch, why not be able to fish everywhere else where you cannot keep any
more of the fish that you catch?
And here's the proverbial "Catch 22". What if you were fishing Deer Creek tomorrow, you already had 9 perch, and you caught two at the same time on a jigging rapala? You can only keep one, and you cannot legally release either one. Would it be ethical to release one? The reason for the regulation is to avoid killing them after they've been caught in deep water during the coldest part of the year.
And you are right. If an angler uses a little TLC, most fish can be released to fight again another day. But it helps to use artificial flies or lures, if your intentions are to release the fish that you catch.
Fishrmn
btw, I'm still waiting for PBH to chime in on this one. Where are you PBH?
The Utah fishing proclimation has a definition for possession that states that possession means actual OR constructive possession. This gives the DWR the right to cite you if you are fishing after you have a limit of fish, It is vague to me but it does seem to give the DWR a legal right to stop you from fishing after you have a limit. Also if you have fish at home or in your camp, that is part of your limit until they are gone. It can be very confusing and a judge would have to make the final decision on the matter.
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It would be a safe guess to say that most anglers have had experiences where they had to release an injured fish that most likely would not survive. Many, have even caught misshapened or diseased looking fish, that if kept for any reason, could have put them in violation of a law.
Yes, artificial lures or flies can help, but, I've had fish swallow both to the point that I was sure the injury would be fatal to the fish. I've also had to wrestle with a fish that I had landed that was not too injured, but after the extended period of being out of the water and/or handled, I felt the chances of that fish's survival had been somewhat compromised. I've even caught fish on a fly that had wrapped the line in the bushes so bad that I could not get if free for ten minutes - had that happened on a catch and release only water, instead of a nice trout dinner, I would have had to float a dead fish down the river.
I don't have a good answer either. However, It has occured to me, while fishing and seeing some of the scenarios you've mentioned, that maybe there could be a solution.
Perhaps, one idea could be a partial solution to the ethical portion of the issue of what to do with a fish you can not legally keep but ethically you don't want to just throw back. Maybe an angler could keep the mortaly injured fish, but, be required to turn it over to the DWR. They(the DWR) in turn, could give the fish to someone in need or keep it themselves.
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The DWR
cannot give you a way out in that situation.
Quote: However, I would choose to abide by the law and risk the release of the injuried fish in hopes it survives.
So, by your own words it's okay to release an injured fish in hopes that it will survive.
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#1. Exactly.
#2. Dont try to put words in my mouth, I tend to spit!
No where did I write its OK to release an injuried creater of any type. I suggest you re-read my statement..
The DRW cant please everyone all the time. If you dont like certain regs its up to you to try and change them, just as others will work to keep them in place..
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Here's my stupid question, along with a stupid answer:
1. If you want to continue fishing, why on earth would you keep a fish that would put you at your limit?????
If you are not finished fishing (Look at Predators example up at the beginning of this thread), then you shouldn't keep a fish that max's out your limit. Once you have your limit, you need to stop fishing. But, a smart fishermen is smart enough to not keep that last fish until he is ready to call it a day!
....just another wonderful day in paradise...
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