... I understand that each recipe is different.. was curious where the starting point was for this particular fly.. which of course leads me to the next question..
.. is where you start wrapping the lead wire dependent on the recipe or is it usually started at the eye and worked back...
MacFly [cool]
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[cool][#005028]Usually starts at the eye and work back towards the hook. Generally wire like copper one would start at about the point of the hook and work up to the eye.[/#005028]
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... and that is because a copper wire or a colored wire would be used for the ribbing accent than weight like the lead wire is.. correct?
MacFly [cool]
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[font "Poor Richard"][green][size 3][cool]Hey Mac I don't have all the answers but I will give it a shot. Lead is used striclky for weighting a fly whereas wire can perform several tasks. e.g. In a Cooper John its used as wt and the Emerging Bugger used to segment the body material. Wire also serves to provide durability and ribbing to a fly. [/size][/green][/font]
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DR,
thank you ... that makes sense to me.. I knew it was used to at times accent and segment.. just did not think of it as weight.. but on certain flies and depending on the diameter of the wire in question.. what you say makes a lot of sense...
MacFly [cool]
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If you don't wrap the entire hook shank with lead wire. Wrapping the entire shank with lead will tend to make the fly sink quicker from the increased weight.
If you don't wrap the entire hook shank you can affect the way the nymph pattern reacts to pauses in your stripping or dead drift falls.
Put the weight forward and the front of the fly will drop quicker than the back making it look more like a fish diving for the bottom and give more eratic jigging motion.
Put it to the back of the fly and the back of the hook will drop quicker than the front. I know of a guide who does that with his halfback nymph patterns that simulate a stone fly nymphs. Stonefly nymphs when knocked loose of the the rocks floats with its back end low in the water and it top have with its feet swimming in the water. With the fly tied to the tippet and and the back end weighted the fly will tend to stay vertically oriented in the water like a stonefly nymph.
If the entire shank is wrapped the fly has more of tendancy to fall in a horizontal plane with less eratic movement.
These characteristics can be altered some by the the size, shape and materials of the tail, wings, beard, and hackle of the fly.
I am not smart enough to know just how much though.
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Denny ties the lead (or Tungsten, because some waters do not allow lead like Yellowstone) right behind the eye cause the fly will dive nose first on the drop and rise nose first on the pull. Scruffy answered pretty well on what happens where you put the weight.
Dry Rod, I am guessing Denny went with less on that fly to make it more a sub surface thing, but I will bet the weight is still at the eye.
I have a video of an ol' English guy that ties his nymph out of Mohair and wire, no thread at all. Got to be a great fly when you thing about it. A natural sink.
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... I love discussions like this.. [
] .. I honestly learn a lot just reading these posts.. and of course I can apply it all later on the next day I go out fishing...
.. but.. I may be confusing myself on some of the references so let me see if I can ask ther right questions to clear up this old foggy brain..
... when one uses the term lead in the context of this post.. I assume lead wire of a given diameter is what is being discussed or referenced..
.. tungsten.. I was always under the impression that tungsten is a material used to make cone heads and bead heads.. is there such a thing as tungsten wire to replace lead wire??
MacFly [cool]
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[black][size 3]You have a good handle on the use of lead wire. It comes in various dia. I have never heard of tungsten wire, but it may exist. [/size][/black]
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[size 3]You have been talking about using a plastic bead behind a cone head, I prefer to use a few wraps of lead wire. It will hold the cone/bead head in place and solid. After I butt the lead up behind the head, I wrap it with thread, and it seems to hold everything in place.[/size]
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[size 3]I've never used the addition of epoxy or head cement for securing things in place, but it sounds like a good idea if there is any question about it moving.[/size]
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... as I am the novice here I look at a lot of things as what ifs.. or can it be done this way.. [
].. .but with the mention of lead wire into the cone instead of the bead I remember a series of videos I was watching about a year ago.. in one of them one of the tyers said his "trick" to secure a cone head was exactly as you just described..
.. I look at it this way.. I have a couple of different options to look at especially dependent on the material I may or may not have on hand.. and in all cases if there is a doubt it can be given a little bit of extra security with the epoxy.. or head cement.. or hard as nails.. etc..
.. best part for me.. I learn a lot just reading that I can apply later when I am in that situation...
MacFly [cool]
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More and more companies are coming out with Tungsten Wire (Orvis for one) because it is non-toxic. It might not say Tungsten, but rather non-Toxic. Tungsten is larger diameter per weight than lead, but it's still my preference.
As far as securing the cone with lead/tungsten, I have said before, I use a lot of different sinking lines, so I hate any kind of weight on my flies. Iuse aluminum cones and plastic beads. This is for stillwater. For Rivers I have no problem with a weighted fly. That is when I use the Tungsten cones.
[url "http://www.orvis.com/store/product_choice.asp?pf_id=349T&dir_id=1273&group_id=1274&cat_id=5079&subcat_id=6170"]http://www.orvis.com/store/product_choice.asp?pf_id=349T&dir_id=1273&group_id=1274&cat_id=5079&subcat_id=6170[/url]
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They do make a tungsten sheet material that you can cut into strips and wrap onto the shank. I have never read about a tungsten wire though.
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[cool][#005028]
Never paid much attention to what element the wire was composed of except that I thought lead was the product to use. Nor was I aware that lead was a no-no on some rivers. I knew about the lead shot ban on certain river but never related it to flies. Found this product in BM's catalog. Would this be a tungsten product?[/#005028]
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I can't swear to it being TUNGSTEN. I refer to tungsten a lot, but in truth I mean anything NON-TOXIC. There is stillwaters in Yellowstone that forbid lead tied flies, let alone the split shot.
With what China's pulling, I just as soon stay away from LEAD.[
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I have not used LEAD for years.
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Some of the lead alternitives are tungsten. Tungsten is barely gaining in popularity. Bismuth and Cadmium are two of the other alloys that have been out for quite awhile now.
Cadmium is a bit lighter though. It works out to a 1 1/2 to 1 ratio. In other words, 10 wraps of lead would be 15 of bismuth.[cool]
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[cool][#005028]This lead scenario leads me to wonder about all the lead stuff that kids of my generation were exposed too. Like lead in paint, dishes, cooking utensils, gasoline, toys, lead pouring molds to make toy soldiers & God know what else. Guess that I'm lucky to lived through it all. It probably did go through my system for I remember someone once telling me to get the lead out. LOL[/#005028]
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There is an easy test for lead that costs @10 bucks at home depot. It is a swab that you run across the suspected object or substance and it turns color if it tests positive for lead.
Most of the weights that I have been using for the past several years are Bismuth or Brass. I only use lead in the ocean since the alternatives would be very costly especially when using 10, 12 or 16oz while fishing the deep zones.[shocked]
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A couple of years ago I think they changed it so that you were not to use flies or weights containing lead in all of Yellowstone National Park.
Last year it became a requirement in Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado.
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... oh crap... and I just bought a couple or roles of lead wire... but.. as usual you make a lot of sense... especially with the China comment.. kind of brings the thought home.. next time I am out looking I will pick up non toxic rolls... Id rather be safe than sorry and I do want to do things right so to speak.. I did not realize that you tied your flies without for stillwater.. but I dont use sinking line like you do.. yet.. [
].. so in the case of not using sinking lines lile you do is it a good idea to go ahead and tie my flies with material that helps it to sink.. stillwater or not... [
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MacFly [cool]
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Hey Mac!
Go check out some of the deals at the local Sports Authority. They are having some blow out deals on fly line right now. Type III sinking in 3/4, 5/6 and 7/8 in specific.
I just bought several rolls to have on hand for the winter season.[cool]
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