OK - I will agree they may do a few acrobatics but I first caught Silvers before catching Kokes so to me they seem small and lack the fight or a Silver - granted I guess it is a pound for pound arguement at that point...but who targets sculpins for the fight? I just see a silver, king, pike, muskie or even a smallie as a much more enjoyable fight - or even large browns/rainbows. Granted there are no silvers or Kings in Utah....but once you catch silvers you will see Kokes as a "wee little guy" that needs to finish growing up - as that is what they really are.
Also their soft mouth and lack of "agressiveness" seems to be a drawback along with many of them being caught with a flasher/dodger which inhibits the fight as well. Just personally do not fully understand but if you wanna head for the lake together and show me what I have been missing I a willing to give them another chance - especially if you are willing to agree to an Alaska or Canada trip with me to check the spectrum. I will say when you are vertically mooching 15' down and a 15+lb Silver takes you completely horizontal before you realize your bait has been hit...that is awesome...with Kokes I guess it is similar - just on a smaller scale.
I have fished FG a lot and do know most of the Koke holes outta Buckboard - caught a lot of 3.5+lb fish and a few to 5lbs out there. Kinda like catching brookies in a stream that are 7-12" long after a day of 22-28" browns...just makes you think that the only real reason you are catching the Brookies is for dinner....
Talk to you soon - and what when is best for ya to do Canada or Alaska - your choice!
[quote line_dangler][font "Times New Roman"][#000000]I don't know the exact truth about Wyo. Game & Fish stocking tiger trout, but this is definetely not the first time I have heard about them at the Gorge. [/#000000][/font]
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Going back to what the OP said,I don't think it was the Wyo G&F that stocked the tiger trout.
[quote jacksonlaker]I know you guys always say the burbot will have an effect on the Kokanee population, but dont the lake trout eat the most Kokanee??? How come the people of Kokanee Nation dont say kill all the macs because they eat the kokes. But they say kill all the burbot, [/quote]
Tom,one reason that "Kokanne Nation" don't throw a fit about the macks eating the kokes,is that it would be useless to complain about it. Kokes were introduced to supplement the food source for the macks. Both Utah and Wyo manage the gorge as a "Trophy Mack Fishery".The popularity of the kokes in the gorge has been a real revenue maker for both states. To complain about the kokes being dinner for the macks would fall upon deaf ears. Of course this is all just my opinion.
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i agree the DWR on both sides need to plant forage fish in the lake.. and they alredy have some they could use! not shad tho.. chub! thats what was in there to start with and they will survive and do well.. just insted of dumpping ton's of kokes in there every year put cheeper and easyer to get.. lot's of lakes on both sides have chub all they need to do is go get them! put them in a truck and plant them in the lake.. well affter makeing sure they are diease free first.. but that can be done when they are still in the other lake..
it allways surprizes me how the DWR just wastes a bait fish like chub.. then complane that lakes like FG and lake powell dont have enugh food for the fish to survive?
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Well Ash, fight they do and their mightly tasty. But I dont see them sticking around long enough to get any size to them. What the Pup Mack and Browns dont take the mugbugs will,, LMAO!!
Btw, yep, who cares about Bass?? [laugh]
Agree though, another pred (is not) what that pond needs...
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Fishley and Tarpon Jim, hopefully I can provide some of the answers.
Tiger trout were planted into the Gorge as a result of a decision made collectively by UDWR and WYG&F. I'm sure you already know that WYG&F has stocked brown trout over the years, to provide anglers with a fishing opportunity that used to be really successful. Tigers fill that same void, but possibly with a other benefits.
Benefit #1- Burbot are increasing rapidly in the Gorge. I know you're a great angler Ashley, but the burbot catch rates going up last winter also had something to do with the expanding population! LOL Burbot fry hatch in the spring and have been seen in huge numbers along the shore throught the upper lake in early to mid-May. Unfortunately, smallmouth bass, the major shoreline predator in the lake, aren't as active during that time period (depending on the year and water temp).
Quite a few anglers have already responded on the habits of tiger trout. They are very aggressive shoreline predators. The goal is for tiger trout to utilize burbot fry during the spring, and possibly juveniles during the remainder of the year, which also remain relatively shallow compared to adult burbot.
Benefit #2- If they're successful, tiger trout will offer anglers fishing the shoreline for smallmouth bass or rainbow trout, another exciting opportunity. They fight hard and they're beautiful fish!
Concerns- Some forum members, questioned the sense of establishing adding predator. That's a great observation. Once again, browns are already stocked in the northern portion of the reservoir, when fish are available. Tigers may continue to be stocked in the reservoir, when fish are available. Tiger trout have similar feeding habits as brown trout, but they are sterile. If they don't work out, then stocking ceases, and the population dies out.
Anglers fishing the Gorge know that the kokanee fishing is awesome this year. Unfortunately, the number of kokanee recruited to the lake in 2008, was the lowest ever recorded. Burbot have not only been found with kokanee as large as 10 inches in their stomachs (ice angling reports from '08) but have also been documented feeding on kokanee eggs at in-reservoir kokanee spawning areas (fall of 2007). Tigers are not common open water predators, so predation on kokanee should not occur.
In the neighborhood of 55K tiger trout were planted this summer, measuring between 3.5-5 inches in length. Loads were spread from Antelope Flat to Cedar Springs, in attempt to spread the fish out and hopefully increasing survival. At that size, they will have a tough time running from predators themselves. As a note, I personally saw one a couple of weeks ago while snorkeling that was 6-8 inches in length.
We'll all have to wait on the results, but the goal is for someone to cast a Shad Rap on the shores of FGR one day, fight a big 18" tiger into the boat, and see it puking up little burbot!
Hope it helps, Ryno
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Some great info Ryno!!
Tiger Trout are my number one favorite species to catch so no complaints from me. Due to the sterile nature of hybrids, I would vote for Tiger Trout and Tiger Muskie to be put into just about every major reservoir, and if they begin to create more problems than it is worth, stop stocking them and let them die out.
I have a feeling that when the warm water fishery gets going we will see several new lakes with Tiger musky, similar to what we have seen with Tiger trout in the last few years.
I definitely visit Scofield several more times a year now that there are big Tiger Trout there - I can only imagine how big some might get at the gorge if they learn how to eat burbot fry and young. Tiger Trout at the gorge should definitely increase angler hours in the future.
A big thankyou to UDWR for there creativity and use of hybrids, unlike most of our neighboring states!!
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Jim,
The Gorge is fantastic fishery, and you're not hearing anything you don't already know. Heck, it's your office! LOL As a biologist like myself, or manager such as my supervisor, we're responsible for managing a fishery and forced to predict the future based on monitoring trends in the populations and angler catch. As anglers, I believe we become even more informed so we can look at a resource also as users or consumers.
Currently the lake is going through some changes. Burbot abundance has at least doubled in the last two years, and the lake now harbors at least 5 year classes. Kokanee abundance (for fish less than 14 inches) was at an all time low in 2007, even with supplementing the population by stocking 1.2 million fingerlings. Lake trout are doing well, and abundance has dropped over the last two years for fish less than 25 inches, possibly a positive effect of increased angler harvest. That's the abbreviated summary, for an extremely dynamic fishery.
As you know, large lake trout are highly dependent on kokanee and rainbow trout for forage. Anglers utilizing the lake, also target both species, but more specifically kokanee salmon. Therefore kokanees are a dual purpose fishery, important for anglers and for trophy lake trout. The last thing we, meaning UDWR or WYG&F or anglers, want to see is any changes which may cause a dramatic decline in kokanee removing a highly sought fishery and an important prey component for lake trout. Population estimates for kokanee (<14in) in the reservoir during the late 90s were near 1.2 million fish. Unfortunately, those numbers have continued to decline to last year's estimate of only 380K, 1/4 of what it used to be. This is likely a result of predation, and burbot have been documented feeding on kokanee eggs and 1-year olds. There may not be a problem with kokanee fishing or lake trout forage today, but at that rate the future is at least questionable.
Burbot, there's been lots of talk, and I think most of the forum members utilizing the Gorge know what's going on. The cookie cutter burbot out there right now is about an 18-inch fish. I've caught fish that size with 26 crayfish, 7 smallmouth, or even a 10-inch koke in it. An 18-inch female burbot will also produce up to a million eggs. To put that in perspective, kokanee only produce about 2000 eggs per female. That's a lot of eatin' with a lot of reproductive potential. Anglers like Fishley, are catching so many during the winter, burbot have the highest catch rates on the Gorge. That wasn't the case only 2 years ago.
Some people may call it "doom and gloom". Maybe, but it's tough to predict outcomes, so you do the best you can with what info you have available. With increasing effort, both agencies will continue to raise and stock kokanees, and try to halt the population decline or "crash". At the same time, both agencies will continue to persue ways to soften the blow (ex. angler harvest, tiger trout as a control method) from an exploding burbot population that is eating just about anything they can get their mouths on. Lake trout are currently doing well, but by keeping numbers of small fish at a manageable level, fish will maintain higher condition and bigger/healthier fish will continue to persist. Rainbow trout are provided by stocking, and in the near future, will come in two flavors, Eagle Lake and Kamloops strains. In the Gorge, shoreline anglers will benefit from the Eagle Lakes and trollers will benefit from the Kamloops. Rainbows and kokanees both depend highly on zooplankton for forage, which is fortunately abundant enough in the Gorge to support each of them.
Sorry for the long-winded reply to only a few of your comments, and I hope I didn't put anyone to sleep. Hopefully you'll simply understand the management decisions are designed for the benefit of the Flaming Gorge fishery so many anglers enjoy.
Thanks, Ryno
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[font "Times New Roman"][#000000]Okay then, from what I understand the plan (hope) is that the tiger trout will help control the burbot by feeding on them heavily, especially in spring. [/#000000][/font]
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[font "Times New Roman"][#000000]This spring my dad and I saw something very similar to what you are describing. We saw hundreds and thousands of fish fry, but they moved too rapidly for us to see what type. They were so small, I don't think I could have noticed the difference anyway. But, we also saw small schools of rainbow trout circling them and chasing them up against the rocky shoreline and points. Most of these rainbows were small 16-20 inches. But here and there were much larger ones. So do the rainbows eat, or have you found that the rainbows will begin to prey heavily on the burbot? They are very active in spring too, so I would think they should also eat up many burbot fry[/#000000][/font]
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[font "Times New Roman"][#000000]What about lake trout? Have you seen any with burbot inside them yet? This is where I personally think is the potential for burbot slaughter. I have read that when lake trout attack large fish they first strike and slice them in half or in pieces, then come back and pick up the parts. Why can't they do this with burbot? Is this just my imagination or is it really possible at the Gorge?[/#000000][/font]
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That's a great observation. Rainbows are very opportunistic, but in the Gorge they tend to utilize zooplankton or aquatic insects. I have seen crayfish, cicadas, and snails too. I have never seen any fish in their stomachs, from sampled fish or fish I'm cleaning for a meal. It's not impossible though, and as you know rainbows have the potential to get very big and be very efficient predators under the right circumstances.
Lake trout stomach samples have shown burbot. Netting performed in WY last spring showed only about 1% of the total lake trout sampled had consumed burbot. I also wonder when they will take advantage of them. In the Great Lakes, where burbot, lake trout, and smallmouth bass are all native, burbot are "controlled" by the other two. As of now, neither species has taken advantage of burbot, but I'm optimistic like yourself and believe it's possible.
Ryno
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lmfao i like the small fish. thay dont hurt my elbows like big lakers.
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ya that rumer has been thrown around for yrs did he tell you thay found them in big sandy 15yr ago every body wishes thay knew were thay came from. ya fished next to ray he has caught over 2000 kokes and has broke all the world records lmfao what a record the carp master.
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Thanks for the reply Ryno. The more winded, the better! It can be a complex equation, one that past biologists have shaken in their boots from. I take it that, "yes," tiger trout were planted then from the reference in your reply, and that was done so in hopes of them consuming some burbot.
I too expect, or at least am very hopeful, that lakers will prey on burbot to some degree. I think they would be a second choice if kokanee/rainbow numbers were insufficient to support their appetites. Until then, I suppose its the question, "why eat burbot when I have plenty of bows and kokes to eat.?" When, and if, the first choice gets hard to come by, then maybe we'll find out if they'll eat them, and if burbot will maintain them.
I'm curious about the kokanee population guesses. Is that from hydroacustics done recently, or from some other method of estimating their numbers?
FYI- The "agressive" lakers we are catching on a rod and reel still look mostly healthy. Small heads, fat bellies, and mostly locked jaws when it comes to any urgency to eat an artificial lure. I know that "caught" lakers are not exactly representative of the whole population, but my catches over a season result in a higher sample number than gill nets over a week period ever will. And, any lake trout in its right mind isn't going to swim into a gill net! If they can see and/or sense and avoid one strand of 12-lb mono., they can certainly sense and avoid a gill net. I see them dodge my fishing line every time I drop my underwater camera. Deliberate turns around one strand of line.
Both samples taken together, however, should be more representative of the population as a whole. Unfortunately, the only "stomach" samples I ever get are tails sticking out the throats of caught fish, and that's only about one in 25 that we catch most of the year, and about one in six or eight during a brief spring period after you guys feed 'em! I have yet to see a burbot tail in one.
I hope the long term plans are to continue to pay for, raise, and stock kokanee and rainbows in sufficient numbers to BOTH provide a fishery and feed the macks. That's the only equation I ever see working, especially with the new fish on the block.
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[font "Times New Roman"][#000000]Okay, here are my thoughts on this. I would love to be able to fish the Gorge on a weekly or daily basis as you do. But, I just can't do that any time soon. I make an effort to fish for burbot on every Gorge trip. We have gradually moved our way up the reservoir to find a spot with good Mack pup spots,kokanee, rainbow, bass and burbot. The next target is Squaw Hollow. [/#000000][/font]
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[font "Times New Roman"][#000000]I believe that you can be a very good tool for monitoring the burbot situation since you are on the Gorge so much. That goes for any other weekly/daily Gorge fisherman/woman. So I think you should spend alot of time fishing for burbot and finding the hottest concentrations in your areas. If the kokanee, rainbow, and bass suffer, so will the lake trout, and then business. [/#000000][/font]
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[font "Times New Roman"][#000000]When or if I find a spot where I can catch tens or hundreds of burbot in one day/night I will devote to fishing many of them out. It would really help if we could know such great spots in advance so that no time for searching is wasted. I don't have a fast boat anyway. The guys with the 100+ HP motors can search a huge area. This may be too bold of a plan but it is worth a shot. [
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Jim, I replied to several of the questions or comments within a few replies in this thread, but we did stock the tigers hoping they will utilize burbot. Glad you didn't fall asleep during the "winded" commentary. I replied to a few more of your comments below.
I'm curious about the kokanee population guesses. Is that from hydroacustics done recently, or from some other method of estimating their numbers?
Those population abundance estimates are generated from hydroacoustic/trawl sampling performed in September of 2007. That's performed annually with the next sampling event planned this week, during the night of the new moon. I'm hoping for an increase in kokanee abundance, so we'll keep our fingers crossed.
Both samples taken together, however, should be more representative of the population as a whole. Unfortunately, the only "stomach" samples I ever get are tails sticking out the throats of caught fish, and that's only about one in 25 that we catch most of the year, and about one in six or eight during a brief spring period after you guys feed 'em! I have yet to see a burbot tail in one.
You're right, the ol' saying "it takes a community to raise a child", well it takes about the same to monitor or manage a fishery. All the information is important, and the resource agencies can only do so much throughout the year. In a perfect world we would be out there once a month, tracking diet, abundance, condition, etc. but we all know that's not logistically feasible.
We netted over 200 macks lakewide during a 2 week period this spring. Big fish continue to show good condition, which is what you're seeing. There was a slight decrease in condition for macks smaller than 25 inches and we'll be watching to see if that trend continues next spring. I suspect burbot could impact those smaller macks, because they too utilize crayfish. Some macks are making a living off burbot (angling reports), but for the most part they are persuing kokes and bows.
I hope the long term plans are to continue to pay for, raise, and stock kokanee and rainbows in sufficient numbers to BOTH provide a fishery and feed the macks. That's the only equation I ever see working, especially with the new fish on the block.
We're already moving there. Somewhere around 500K kokanee were stocked this spring by the Fish and Wildlife Service, UDWR, and WYG&F. That number is variable from year to year, but in the future we're hoping to stock 1 million. It's historically been dependent on the intensity of Strawberry Res. runs in Utah. This fall, eggs will be taken from the Sheep Creek and possibly Henry's Fork runs, to be raised and re-stocked back into FGR. We had a good run in Sheep Creek last fall, and hopefully that occurs this year, providing a good egg take.
About 450K Eagle Lake rainbows are stocked annually by the Fish and Wildlife Service. Starting next year, those quotas will creep up, until 1 million bows are stocked. They'll eventually be about 1/2 Eagle Lakes and 1/2 Kamploops.
Currently we have the zooplankton in the reservoir that will support such a stocking effort. We'll monitor zooplankton densities along with kokanee and rainbow trout condition on an annual basis, so we can refine the stocking quotas if needed.
Hope it helps, Ryno
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Thanks for your in put Ryno. It will help us all to have a better understanding of the gorge and the importance of doing what we need to do to help the fishery.
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[font "Times New Roman"][#000000]I seem to vaguely remeber reading something about a plan to enhance the spawing ground at FG for kokanee and rainbows. Has there ever been such talk? I think they have tried this in the Pacific Northwest and Canda in some spots. It has something to do with changing the shoreline, adding some special structures and putting in rocks or something. If the DWR had enough fund for something like that would it help the situation at all?[/#000000][/font]
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Thanks for the heads up it is nice to get info straight form the horses mouth.
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sorry bro but i got to pull the bs flag 6.25lbs that would be a new wyoming state record the curent record was caught in july 2002 it was 24''long had a 15''girth and was weighed in at 6.04lbs just wanted to let you know you screwed up if that fish was 6.25lbs
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