Fishing Forum

I was just reading on KSL that they are going to start removing some of the carp out of Utah Lake. It looks like the federal government is putting a million dollars towards it with the hopes that it will knock down the population a bit. I know there have been quite a few threads on this topic just wondering if anyone else read this story today and what the thoughts are on it?
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I read the story. I have to laugh at the idea that they will put a dent in the carp population. Yeah, maybe you will see a very small difference in the population (that's a BIG maybe) this year. But give the carp five years and they will be back just the same. Unless they are willing pump a million dollars into this effort every few years it won't work. It is just another waste of money for another environMENTAL pipe dream.

Another thing that makes me laugh is how the topic of fishing keeps coming up when they talk about it. They aren't doing this to improve the fishing. They are trying to save the June Sucker. That is all it is. They should just say that and quit pretending it is anything else.
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There has been a good chunk of carp already taken out of UL since late last year. It has already been happening. I agree that unless there is a sustained effort going forward the removal of carp will be a moot point right now.

And even if they are doing it with the June Sucker as their main motivation, the removal of carp will help in EVERY aspect of Utah Lake. It will help other species of fish, waterfowl, and the overall health of the lake. So I don't really care what they call it, as long as they do it. If they can be effective here, this will ABSOLUTELY help the Utah Lake ecosystem.
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The plan is at least a five year deal. Its not just a million dollars this year but over the next 5 years. I think it can only help.
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You guys make some good points but I still have my doubts. Another problem that this solution does not address is all the other predators in the lake. There are white bass, walleye, perch, LM bass, SM bass, bluegill, and channel cats. All of them are predators and they are a major reason that the June Suckers can't sustain themselves. Removing every last carp wouldn't solve that problem. If the baby carp are reduced (less parents=less babies) the suckers will be in even more danger.

Don't get me wrong. I would like to see the carp gone. I would like to see a cleaner Utah Lake, and all that. But I just don't see how it could work in the long run. I am not sure Utah Lake will ever be what they are saying it will be. And the whole thing sounds like a sales pitch to me. Given the amount of money involved and the cause, it feels like they are trying to convince themselves along with the rest of us.
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You make some excelent points yourself. I am on the fence with this one. I think what they are doing will improve things but you are right about them never removing all the fish. I wish the junie would just die out personally. Then they might put Northerns or TMs in there!!
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Look, I have worked for a guy that removes carp from the lake all the time for commercial sales in fish sticks and caviar. If they are getting federal funding now they will be working even harder and, believe you me, it is damn hard work. Anything they can get out of that lake carp wise is going to help and it might be a long process but it is worthwhile to all of us. The more the merrier.
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dude there has been northern pike planted in there.. still hear roumers of someing picking up baits making a fast run and sreding the line as it swims away. [sly].. could be some still in there somewhere..
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[cool][#0000ff]A lot of folks don't make the connection between carp and junies. It is not that the carp are predators on the suckers, but that they continuosly root up all of the plant life that young junies need for protection from the predators, etc. Also, the suckers are creatures of colder and cleaner waters. When carp remove vegetation and root up the muddy areas it contributes to water quality problems...with the lake taking longer to clear up after wind storms. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Of course, carp will suck up both eggs and fry of other species, but the junies spawn in the gravel upstream from the lake, with very few carp to molest the nests.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]As far as the other predators in the lake, they will always be a threat to young junies. We laughingly refer to the annual junie planting of fry as the DWR walleye feeding program. Most walleye you catch in the areas of junie plantings have several of the little tykes in their guts.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Every carp removed from Utah Lake is potentially hundreds of thousands of carp removed over time. But, realistically, even removing thousands of carp has not done much to dent their total biomass. The Loy family has been heavily harvesting carp from Utah Lake commercially for several generations. Hasn't changed the balance of biomass at all. Putting a different name on the harvest process is not likely to make any difference.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]In the movie JAWS, there was the line "You're gonna need a bigger boat." To remove the carp from Utah Lake, we're gonna need a bigger net...lots of bigger nets. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]An ideal situation would be to remove enough carp that they would become only JUST ANOTHER SPECIES in the lake...like they are in Deer Creek and Starvation. The predator- prey balance is such that the existing population of carp produce only enough survivors each year to replace natural die off and harvest. The predators eat enough of the young carp that they never explode into the overwhelming imbalance we see on Utah Lake.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]It all goes back to the early years, shortly after carp were first planted. There was a cycle of drought that dropped the lake to super low levels. That wiped out a lot of the other fish, but carp survived just fine. Their population exploded while the other species were trying to come back when the lake filled up again. Carp have ruled Utah Lake ever since. They are like cockroaches. They can survive anything.[/#0000ff]
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very well said Dude!!

and any carp removal in any Ut waters is a good start!! it is realy to it took the fed's to step in to get the utah DWR to do it tho!!! [crazy]

is it going to take a act of GOD to get them to start a removel program for the rest of the state? [mad]
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Tubedude hit the nail on the head. The removal of carp to help the June Sucker has nothing to do with predation.

That was a nice explanation of the problem there.
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TD, i want to know how much you getting for all those carp you have removed from that lake and how can i sing up for your line of work. I think we need some of this bad boys to take care of bussiness.

[inline "munch munch.jpg"]
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[cool][#0000ff]Ha! I get paid zero, zip, nada, zilch for all the carp I "recycle" back into the environment...in other forms. And I am worth every penny they pay me.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Kinda like wetting your pants in the dark. Nobody else knows or cares, but it gives ya a nice warm feeling.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I agree. Utah Lake could use some "Carpinators" like these bad boys. (Alligator gar)[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Only problem is they need warm water to survive. But, if they did get a toehold in Utah Lake, they wouldn't only munch carp. The enviro folks would scream bloody murder about all of the "good guys" that disappeared down those toothy jaws too. The first time a junie was found in one of them it would be war...with depth charges, nuclear warheads and everything.[/#0000ff]
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Sweet attachments!!!

Man, that almost breaks my heart to see the correlation between the increase in carp and the decrease in the Cutthroats. It makes me a little sick to my stomach to think about it.

That shows exactly the destruction a huge biomass of carp will have on a lake like that. They move so much mud around, it makes it impossible for other species that need aquatic vegetation to thrive. Great info, and gives a look at what needs to be done to help that water.
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[cool][#0000ff]Actually, the carp kinda filled the void left by the cutthroats after they were mass harvested by the pioneers. It seemed to the early Utahns like there was an inexhaustible supply of the trout and they were netted commercially by the ton and sold in Salt Lake for very little money. They no doubt helped the early settlers survive, but the cutties were fished to extinction. Those that weren't caught by anglers or commercial fishermen were killed by the thousands when water from the Provo River was diverted into farmers' fields...along with the trout in it.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Nope. Can't hand carp all the blame for the demise of the cutthroat. Humans gotta take credit for that.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Check the attached pic of what the cutthroats looked like in the olden days.[/#0000ff]
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I was not exactly clear in my statement. Commercial fishing absolutely was the demise of the cutthroats in UL. Just breaks my heart to see cutthroats replaced by carp. Especially like the ones you posted in that last pic.

I've read reports of 30 lb cutthroats in UL when the settlers first came here. Don't know how true they are, but the reports are out there. Make me day dream of what a place like that looked like before we messed it up too bad. And yes, putting carp in the Lake absolutely contributed to UL becoming what it is today.
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The alligator gar were once actually found clear up into Canada, but they've been killed off and are now only found in the south. So they might be able to survive in Utah. They were actually killed off by the government as well, though not because damage to the ecosystem, but because people freaked out about how big and mean they looked and thought they were the most dangerous fish on earth. There were stories about them biting grown alligators in half! Pretty ridiculous. Maybe they could borrow the idea of electric death barges though (used to kill tons of gar quickly) for the carp.
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If it was'nt for the June Sucker, do you think Utah lake could be saved by a Rotenone treatment?
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Utah lake is MASSIVE!! It would be far too expensive to rotenone it these days. Plsu there are carp up in tribs that wouldnt die and would just come back quickly. Plus it would kill all the piranas in there. []
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So, the state of Utah and Federal Government are together paying $1.5M to remove 5M pounds of carp. At what I am guessing is an average of 8lbs/fish, this means they are paying $2.40 per fish.

It seems to me that if they put a bounty of $2 per fish that could be redeemed by taking just the severed bugle mouths on a string to any stateparks booth or office they'd get the job done a lot quicker.

In the few times that I've specifically targeted carp on UT Lake, my catch rates were 6-8 fish per hour. Settlers cleaned the lake out of cutthroat by overfishing, given the right incentive we could probably do it to the carp as well.

I'm a believer that had there been a good predator in the lake when carp were introduced and had the lake not been drained so far during the 30's, then carp would have never gained their dominance. I think that if carp numbers are reduced far enough today, the lake would become a predator dominated lake again (Unfortunately to the demise of the June sucker as well).

On second thought, the idea of having a few thousand angers descend on the lake to collect bounties and the stench around the lake afterwards might not be the best thing....
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