06-02-2009, 08:13 PM
06-02-2009, 09:11 PM
That is right on my way home from work. Thanks for the information.
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06-02-2009, 11:50 PM
mmmm I hope they can remove them as fast as they cane...[#0000ff] Please watch your language -- Kent[/#0000ff]
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06-03-2009, 12:11 AM
Is it true that they are wanting people to just do away with the carp they catch?
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06-03-2009, 12:12 AM
Does this mean that there will be significant changes in the fishery? Do any of you have any opinions about whether or not this will improve the fishing at utah lake??? I am curious about what this will do.
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06-03-2009, 12:14 AM
I hope like hell it will do something for the lake, not only the fishing aspect but the entire look of the lake. I have also heard rumors of the state wanting to turn it into a premier bass fishery! [fishin]
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06-03-2009, 02:24 AM
I will be there! Who's coming with me?
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06-03-2009, 05:56 PM
Sorry Kent I did not think that was a bad enough word to get spanked.
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06-03-2009, 07:05 PM
I would encourage all Utah Lake Fisherman to attend this presentation tonight. You will not only learn about the project, but about the ecology of the lake and why the removal of the carp is so important to the recovery of the lake. You also need to realize that the recovery of the lake will take 15 -20 years, but that is acceptable. I hope that the folks from Utah State are there and will present the Predator/Prey relationship in the lake and some of the other goodies that they have learned. This will be informative and useful !!!!!! Be there or be square !!!
06-03-2009, 11:26 PM
Gotta work tonight so keep us informed that arn't able to make it. Thanks
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06-04-2009, 11:44 PM
I was able to attend this open house--at least a lot of it before I had to go to another appointment. I thought it was interesting, but didn't really get a lot out of it that I didn't already know, other than I need to go into the carp netting business. I was also surprised at the pretty passionate opposition to the whole project exhibited by a few of the people who attended. Those individuals are certainly entitled to their opinions and I respect them for showing up, but I never really figured out what they were opposed to or why and was wondering if anyone could fill me in. What I wish I could have stayed for and what I really wanted to know was about what kinds of changes could we expect in the lake in the shorter term. It sounded like 6 years was kind of a magical number, but would there be ANY noticeable changes in the lake before that? And after that, what kinds of changes could we expect in the long term and on what kind of time table. I know that the lake took a while to get into its current state so it stands to reason that it would take a while to improve it, but some seem to think that it after the magic 6th year there would be dramatic improvement while others (and I am a little closer to this group) seem to think that it would be more in the 10-20 year range or longer before there would be dramatic change. I was wondering if any of you who were there got any of those questions answered.
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06-05-2009, 01:49 AM
[cool]Thanks for your report. Did anybody else attend that would like to share their thoughts??
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06-05-2009, 02:28 AM
The meeting last night is part of the process that is required for the project to move forward.
Prior to the start of the presentation, Bill Loy Sr. gave a short History of commercial fishing on Ut. Lake.
Reed Harris, the DNR publicist for this project presented the reasoning for the removal of carp. Unfortunately, he did not have the information regarding the Ricker Curve ( predicts the point of collaspe of the carp population) and the parallel food webs. These are going to be available later I believe.
The primary discussion was over the cost to date and future costs. The objections were basically, " why recover the June Sucker, what good is it." These individuals were expressing their opinion that the sucker is worthless, so why spend the money. What they did not take into consideration was that the sucker is on the Endangered species list, hence it is required by law to be recovered, regardless of cost. As I tried to explain, this proposal is by far the cheapest, least intrusive, and has the greatest chance of succeeding of all the proposals. I also tried to point out that if we don't do this, some judge will take it upon themselves to mandate what will happen and everyone will lose.
So the next phase will allow for public comment, then there are more meetings and if everything gets approval, the Loy's will be back netting sometime in August.( Bill Jr. mentioned something about the Gvt. screwing things up and letting them spawn, well duh !!!!!)
Several individuals offered alternatives to the netting. ONe was to offer a bounty on carp. The biggest problem now is what to do with them. Unless someone comes up with a marketing idea, they are most likely going to put them in the landfill. Another possibility is to convert them to liquid fertilizer. Still lots to be determined.
As to the results !! We might see some immediate results, but overall it will take many years for the fish populations to stabilize, the lake to heal and things getting back to normal. I would bet 15 -20 years if all goes well.
Another question was what would fill in the niche that the removal of the carp would leave. Hopefully for the June Sucker guys, the June sucker would fill in some of it. You would have a resurgence in the macro invertebrates: bugs,( mayflies, bullflies, midges) , scuds, crayfish, and possibly freshwater mollusk. There would also be increases in all the other fish in the lake, the mix and balance would be yet determined.
If everything works and the Sucker recovers, it gets delisted and the Feds take their money and go mess with someone else. If not, then they keep meddling and spending and screwing things up.
Yeaaaaa Haaaa!!! Sorry for the long post
Prior to the start of the presentation, Bill Loy Sr. gave a short History of commercial fishing on Ut. Lake.
Reed Harris, the DNR publicist for this project presented the reasoning for the removal of carp. Unfortunately, he did not have the information regarding the Ricker Curve ( predicts the point of collaspe of the carp population) and the parallel food webs. These are going to be available later I believe.
The primary discussion was over the cost to date and future costs. The objections were basically, " why recover the June Sucker, what good is it." These individuals were expressing their opinion that the sucker is worthless, so why spend the money. What they did not take into consideration was that the sucker is on the Endangered species list, hence it is required by law to be recovered, regardless of cost. As I tried to explain, this proposal is by far the cheapest, least intrusive, and has the greatest chance of succeeding of all the proposals. I also tried to point out that if we don't do this, some judge will take it upon themselves to mandate what will happen and everyone will lose.
So the next phase will allow for public comment, then there are more meetings and if everything gets approval, the Loy's will be back netting sometime in August.( Bill Jr. mentioned something about the Gvt. screwing things up and letting them spawn, well duh !!!!!)
Several individuals offered alternatives to the netting. ONe was to offer a bounty on carp. The biggest problem now is what to do with them. Unless someone comes up with a marketing idea, they are most likely going to put them in the landfill. Another possibility is to convert them to liquid fertilizer. Still lots to be determined.
As to the results !! We might see some immediate results, but overall it will take many years for the fish populations to stabilize, the lake to heal and things getting back to normal. I would bet 15 -20 years if all goes well.
Another question was what would fill in the niche that the removal of the carp would leave. Hopefully for the June Sucker guys, the June sucker would fill in some of it. You would have a resurgence in the macro invertebrates: bugs,( mayflies, bullflies, midges) , scuds, crayfish, and possibly freshwater mollusk. There would also be increases in all the other fish in the lake, the mix and balance would be yet determined.
If everything works and the Sucker recovers, it gets delisted and the Feds take their money and go mess with someone else. If not, then they keep meddling and spending and screwing things up.
Yeaaaaa Haaaa!!! Sorry for the long post
06-05-2009, 03:19 AM
Thanks for the report. I couldn't make this meeting, but wished I was able to. A couple of questions if I may.
1. Previously, the projected Ricker curve prediction was that the current carp harvest level would need to be maintained for 7 years to start to see the decline/collapse. (depending on water and other variable conditions) Are they still feeling this to be accurate, now that they are almost 1 year into netting?
2. Is the funding secured to keep the Loys netting past this fiscal year?
3. Did they say anything regarding more meetings and/or projects of the Utah Lake Fish forum?
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1. Previously, the projected Ricker curve prediction was that the current carp harvest level would need to be maintained for 7 years to start to see the decline/collapse. (depending on water and other variable conditions) Are they still feeling this to be accurate, now that they are almost 1 year into netting?
2. Is the funding secured to keep the Loys netting past this fiscal year?
3. Did they say anything regarding more meetings and/or projects of the Utah Lake Fish forum?
Thanks[
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06-05-2009, 08:33 PM
Thanks for the info. Please keep us up all to date if you find out any more.
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06-06-2009, 04:26 AM
Question 1: They were talking 6 years with continuing removal to maintain.
Question 2: Funding is dependent on the FWS accepting the proposal. That is what this process we are in is about. There were several folks from FWS there, so I assume that they are supportive.
Question 3: More meetings, there are more schedualed, don't know when.
By the way, Saturday is the Utah Lake Celebration, free entrance into the park and most of the material presented Thursday evening will be there.
Question 2: Funding is dependent on the FWS accepting the proposal. That is what this process we are in is about. There were several folks from FWS there, so I assume that they are supportive.
Question 3: More meetings, there are more schedualed, don't know when.
By the way, Saturday is the Utah Lake Celebration, free entrance into the park and most of the material presented Thursday evening will be there.
06-11-2009, 10:25 PM
Why dont they market these fish to countries that eat carp? And maybe make a profit? 5million pounds of fish a year should be worth something.
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06-11-2009, 10:56 PM
I like the idea of using the carp for fertalizer i know alot of the large fish farms in arizona send the guts,heads.... to these sort of things. I know alot of ppl who like me to take them carp i catch they dig a hole in there garden and bury them.
Did they mention anything long term, I dont know much about the process but i dont understand how all of this is going to keep them from coming back.
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Did they mention anything long term, I dont know much about the process but i dont understand how all of this is going to keep them from coming back.
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06-11-2009, 11:30 PM
"Did they mention anything long term, I dont know much about the process but i dont understand how all of this is going to keep them from coming back. "
[cool][#0000ff]The carp got to be so plentiful because there has never been enough of a population of predators to keep them in check naturally. All of the predators in Utah Lake will eat young carp during the short time they are small enough to be eaten. But, they grow fast and are too big for all but huge walleyes and catfish by the end of the first summer.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There are other lakes in Utah that have a "balance" between carp and other species. Deer Creek and Starvation are a couple...with Willard Bay a good example too. The carp still have major spawns each year, but a large number of hungry predators slurp up enough of the little ones that those who survive are not enough to tip the balance in favor of the carp.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The plan for Utah Lake is to keep whittling away at the overwhelming population of adult carp until they reach the "tipping point"...where the young they produce are only enough to sustain a population and not to keep outgrowing the rest of the species. There are several guesses as to how long that might take...from 6 years to 20 years. The only thing certain is that every carp removed represents thousands of baby carp the following spring. We can only hope that it is possible to remove enough to start the flow going in the other direction. But, once it is down below the balance point, the predators should be able to keep them in check...theoretically. But, all it takes is a couple of major drought years...when only carp have a good spawn...and away we go again.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Carp make good fertilizer, but they have to be processed. You don't just dump the carcasses into a bag and sell it. There has to be a commercial operation that can handle fluctuating quantities of carp and that can realize some economic benefit (Profit) from it.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Since the findings of unsafe levels of PCBs in carp, there is a block on sending them ANYWHERE for human consumption. That is what knocked the heck out of some of the original plans.[/#0000ff]
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[cool][#0000ff]The carp got to be so plentiful because there has never been enough of a population of predators to keep them in check naturally. All of the predators in Utah Lake will eat young carp during the short time they are small enough to be eaten. But, they grow fast and are too big for all but huge walleyes and catfish by the end of the first summer.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There are other lakes in Utah that have a "balance" between carp and other species. Deer Creek and Starvation are a couple...with Willard Bay a good example too. The carp still have major spawns each year, but a large number of hungry predators slurp up enough of the little ones that those who survive are not enough to tip the balance in favor of the carp.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The plan for Utah Lake is to keep whittling away at the overwhelming population of adult carp until they reach the "tipping point"...where the young they produce are only enough to sustain a population and not to keep outgrowing the rest of the species. There are several guesses as to how long that might take...from 6 years to 20 years. The only thing certain is that every carp removed represents thousands of baby carp the following spring. We can only hope that it is possible to remove enough to start the flow going in the other direction. But, once it is down below the balance point, the predators should be able to keep them in check...theoretically. But, all it takes is a couple of major drought years...when only carp have a good spawn...and away we go again.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Carp make good fertilizer, but they have to be processed. You don't just dump the carcasses into a bag and sell it. There has to be a commercial operation that can handle fluctuating quantities of carp and that can realize some economic benefit (Profit) from it.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Since the findings of unsafe levels of PCBs in carp, there is a block on sending them ANYWHERE for human consumption. That is what knocked the heck out of some of the original plans.[/#0000ff]
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06-11-2009, 11:31 PM
Carp from Utah Lake have been sold for human consumption for decades. This all came to a halt when PCB was found in the carp.
[url "http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,635208061,00.html"]Link to article discussing this:[/url]
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[url "http://www.deseretnews.com/article/content/mobile/0,5223,635208061,00.html"]Link to article discussing this:[/url]
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