The Magic valley is a poor place for catfishing. I can tell you all that I have spent a great deal of time going after them and have had limited success. I don’t conceder my self to be a great cat fisherman but I do ok in Western Idaho.The fact is we need our voices to be heard. The F&G needs to understand that we want catfishing opportunity in the Magic Valley. I work in a trout hatchery. We turn all of our trout into females so they look better for the meat market. Those fish are sterile fish that cannot reproduce. It is my opinion that the catfish the F&G buys from Leo Rays catfish farm are sterile cats. They are planted in several locations all over Idaho and NONE of them in any location will reproduce on their own. In lake Lowell there is no Natural reproduction. But in the river a couple of miles away there IS natural reproduction. I have had endless talks with F&G and Idaho Power on the subject of catfishing in Southern Idaho. Water temp and elevation is always to blame for the lack of reproduction. The Idaho Power people to be honest have no idea where the cats are that they plant. They dump 20,000 cats a year into Milner and nothing to show for it. The fact is catfish reproduce in areas with water temps in the mid 70’s and a LOT of areas have cats that are higher in elevation. I have made endless cases to prove that cats could naturally reproduce if we had viable breeding stock. Some things I would like to see.
#1- I would like to see channel cats caught in the Brownlee area brought into Milner, and Lower Salmon falls in Hagerman. Not just a hand full, I mean let’s bring in a couple of thousand 5 to 8 pound breeding cats into each area for several years to try to get a base.
#2- I would like to see Flatheads brought in and planted into both areas. Flatheads are predators and would help to reduce the Pikeminnow and carp populations. The river from Minadoka to Hagerman is mostly thought of as a waste of time. There are a few areas of semi decent trout fishing but not many and nothing like it used to be 20 to 30 years ago. Some good areas for bass but for the most part are stunted. And Sturgeon are ok in a few areas. Flatheads would reduce the trash fish and also thin some of the bass to allow the others to get a little bigger.
#3- if cats are bought we should get them from a source that we know for a fact that they are fertile. The farm we get them from now has a vested interest in selling us sterile fish. If he sold us fertile fish we would no longer need him.
# 4- Limits need to be put in place on Magic Valley catfish. We have a limited resource, why do we have an unlimited harvest? Either length limits or harvest limits need to be put into place. If we transplant a bunch of breeders from Brownlee we need limits in place for a while to protect them so they can become established.
It is funny. We had a F&G meeting here in the Magic valley a little while back it was called a fish fry. They served Crappie, and catfish neither of which can be caught in our area with any regularity. I have been told in the past that what people want in the magic Valley is Walleye, trout and bass. I don’t believe that to be true. If it is why did they serve Catfish instead of trout? The fact is it takes a catfish 10 years to get to 21” in Idaho for the most part. We will never have a good population of breeding catfish until someone in the F&G really wants it to happen. Until then we will have to travel to the western side of the state to find good catfishing. What we can do for now is call the F&G office in Jerome. Let them know that the catfish program in the Magic Valley is NOT meeting expectations. We want better catfishing and we want naturally reproducing fish planted into our waters. The man to call is Doug Megargle at the Jerome F&G, 208-324-4350.
I also asked them to plant crappie into both milner and Lower salmon falls. If you want this to happen you need to call and let him know. Ron
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Sounds like you have a well thought out argument. You need to get a huge number of cat lovers together to make this happen otherwise they will see this as just another faction trying to push their agenda.
You might even need to start a Magic Valley Cat Club to lobby officially.
Think about it they have the bass people giving their opinion, the family fishing water advocates (stocker trout) the fly fishermen, those who want trophy waters, those who want more walleye, those who want more consistent perch fishing etc...
Your going to have to prove that their is a population base that really cares. In other words money talks. I like your argument that the cats stocked in Milner are wasted.
Windriver
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When I go to Magic Valley it is because I want to catch trout and panfish. The only places I know of that are good to marginal for panfish are SFCR and Magic. I'd love to see some additional places for panfish.
As for catfish, I don't care if I never catch another one. Are you sure there are a lot of people who'd like to see more catfish in the Magic Valley? I for one am not. No would be my vote.
If you want catfish, you are welcome to come as many as you'd like out of Brownlee and you will get my blessing. There are far to many there now.
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[quote idahoron]
I work in a trout hatchery. We turn all of our trout into females so they look better for the meat market. Those fish are sterile fish that cannot reproduce.
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Don't want to hijack your thread (I also enjoy fishing for catfish down here in Utah.), but I would like to hear the process your hatchery uses to "...turn all of our trout into females..."
I am surprised there isn't a limit on catfish in Idaho. I have fished in Utah for over 50 years and there has always been a limit on them (current limit is 8).
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When trout eggs get to a certain stage they are dunked into water that is a different temperature than what they were in I am not allowed to give much more than that. This causes them to all turn to females. We have done it for years and so is the state. The F&G does it to plant sterile fish in water that they don’t want them to breed. Ron
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interesting and thought provoking post. at least now i dont feel as bad that i havent caught one yet haha.
how far of a drive is it to weiser from twin?
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CE, Well it depends where you go but we are talking 3.5 to 4 hours to get to Brownlee from twin falls.
buggy, I wanted to reply to your post. You are coming to the magic valley to fish for trout and panfish. Have you been fishing for them in Lower salmon and Milner? The reason I ask is the trout planting was halted several years ago in Milner. Some guys find them in the upper stretch where they are washed over the minadoka dam, but it is NOT a productive trout area. I understand that the water is getting warmer than they can take to survive. So the trout was halted due to poor habitat.
Lower Salmon was also a great area for trout 20 to 30 years ago. I remember my family would troll for trout in Bell Rapids with my Grandpa. Over the years the moss has grown in, the water is getting warmer and the carp and squawfish have taken over. This area was at one time a Bass tournament area. It is my understanding the bass fishermen have quite using it since the area can not produce a legal sized fish. SO what we have is two bodies of water that COULD produce fish. I am thinking Crappie and Cats. Now I am sure there are a few guys that still fish both for trout but I am thinking that the number of guys that fish milner and lower salmon for trout are fewer than the guys that make the trek to Brownlee for cats. Again I am not saying remove the trout form all the streams and WMA ponds. They can still plant trout in Bell Rapids and if they want put them into milner I don’t care. What I am saying is Catfish and Crappie can and should be a part of our local fishing in the Magic Valley. Dog Creek and Carey lake have been the target of our plantings for cats. Carey lake is POOR habitat at best for cats. Catfish do need species-specific habitat. Dog creek is better than Carey. The problem is again the lake is the size of a goldfish bowl. I have seen people with stringers FULL of 10” catfish in dog creek. What do you do with a 10” cat? They are about ½ head and tail. I am thinking that the F&G will not even plan cats this year at all. That backs my thinking that limits of some sort should be in place just to spread what we have around somewhat.
I have worked for a couple of years on trying to convince F&G to look at this different. They seem willing when I talk to them but I am only one voice. I am not sure if anyone else even cares. I read posts like the OP and I think ya there are other guys that would like cats here. Most of the true cat fishermen I know all just go to Brownlee a couple times a year for a cat fix. The Magic Valley exports more fishermen and hunters than we import. Some people come here to trout fish, some come to fish for walleye and bass. What I would like to see is each region have it’s own Walleye, Bass, Cats, Perch, Crappie what ever when they can. Why should the guys in northern Idaho drive to twin falls for Walleye? Why should the guys in the magic valley drive to Brownlee? Each region should have areas to diversify when they can. Last it sounds like you have some hatred for catfish, why? They are good to eat, fight good and grow to be big. I don’t understand the comment about having too many and come and get all you want. Ron
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I like your idea of having a diverse fishery in every region. However, in some regions this is just not going to happen do to habitat, weather etc...Not saying this is the case with the Magic Valley, but in the upper snake river region there will never be a viable cat fishery simply because the growing season is so short and the number of place that would work for them is so small. Yes they could thrive in a number of places but the F&G is not going to take a chance on disrupting the balance that makes this area a world wide draw for trout fishing.
I have come to accept this and will travel every once in a while for my cat fix like you said.
Sorry I got off track in general I applaud your effort to get catfish into areas where they may be a great game fish. I really do think limits should be put in place.
Windriver
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I too would love to see a viable catfishing fishery in the Magic Valley. I used to live in in Logan, Ut and the catfish caught out of the Bear River there were fun to catch and tasted great (they also grew very large). As you said there are several areas in the Magic Valley that could support these fish if they were actively managed instead of treated as a trash fish.
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[quote idahoron] What I would like to see is each region have it’s own Walleye, Bass, Cats, Perch, Crappie what ever when they can. Why should the guys in northern Idaho drive to twin falls for Walleye? Why should the guys in the magic valley drive to Brownlee? Each region should have areas to diversify when they can. [/quote]
I'm in the Salmon region. We have our choice of many lakes and rivers where we can fish for either trout, or trout, or trout. Sometimes a salmon swims by, a trout cousin.
I've talked to F&G and emailed them. I wish they could pick one little lake or reservoir and plant perch. One of my first emails got a response of two words, "no plans". The next email got a reply after 6 months saying it had been forwarded to the correct people for an answer. I'm still waiting over two years for that reply to show up.
One question about your plan to put flathead in the Snake. Do big flathead compete with sturgeon? I don't know the answer, but it seems they have similar feeding habits.
We tried Milner last week for catfish without much luck. This week we will try Ririe for perch and Brownlee for cats. And nothing in the Salmon region.
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Sturgeon would be the only issue. Milner has a few sturgeon that were planted in there. To my knowledge they do not reproduce, and these fish are never added to the F&G's targeted species for sample counting in the lowland lake studies. For the most part they are treated as non-existent. The area between Lower salmon A and B could be a problem with flatheads. Channel cats would not be an issue. The lower snake has TONS of cats and sturgeon. The Colombia has walleye, cats and a sturgeon population that allows harvest. For the most part I don’t see the channel cats as a problem. Milner could be so much more than it is. It maintains a constant pool. It gets warm. It has shallow fast water and slow deep water. The prey base is LARGE and the game fish population is low. It has a lot of the right stuff. But with all that right stuff it has it is in my opinion poor fishing opportunity. Bass are the only fish that has a base large enough to say they are there. But the Bass that are there are small in my opinion. Salmon dam has WAY better bass fishing in my opinion.
Again I have talked to F&G and Idaho Power about the cats in Milner. They honestly know nothing about them. The sample counts that are done are done by Idaho Power. They do share “some” of the data with IDFG but not that much. IP claims that the only time they can catch fish for sample counting is in September. I am trying to get the OK as a F&G reservist to be a part of that sample counting effort on Milner. Ron
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Ron,
In regards to my previous comments, I don't particularly "hate" catfish. I just believe that Brownlee is over populated with them to a point that it severely limits the production of other fish. Let me explain.
Once at Brownlee, not long after the baby Crappie had hatched. I went over to try and get some Crappie. What I saw made me feel that the C-cats are [#ff0000]WAY[/#ff0000][#000000] over populated. I saw multiple large schools cruising the bay where I was fishing. They would encircle the baby Crappie and were eating them by the thousands. I left that bay and end up on a road a hundred or more above the main body of the reservoir. From that one vantage point I counted over 20 large schools of cats. The schools ranged in size from about 20 feet in diameter to as large as 35-40 across and 150 long. They were not just a single layer of cats either. They were stacked 3-6 fish deep.[/#000000]
Now it is very hard to estimate numbers but I had to be able to see 10's if not hundreds of thousands of C-cats from that vantage point and I could only see a very small part of the reservior. The parts that I could see about 1/3 of the water was consumed with catfish. I know those things are eating machines. I've caught them on worms, lures, catfish bait, even flies.
I believe there are enough catfish in the Brownlee system to support a commercial fishery. In fact, I'd like to see it. As far as I am concerned, you can take all you want. You can do with them what you want. I'd just hate to see an over population of catfish ruin someplace like SFCR or Magic. With all the bucket biologists we seem to have in Idaho, I'd hate to see them moved around like you are suggesting as I fear they'd end up in SFCR and Magic and ruin a good thing.
I know little to nothing about Milner so I cannot dispute what you say about that location. But with (what I believe) the over population in Brownlee, I'd much rather see you cat lovers come over and help us keep them in check. I'd also hate to see some very good fishing in Magic Valley ruined by what I consider "the Bane of Brownlee".
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Think about it another way. The crappie fishing is fantastic now. The size on the crappie is very good. IF there were less cats and more crappie they would all be stunted. Yes there might be more crappie with less cats but why would a guy want 8" crappie if he is getting 12" to 14" crappie?
What would you rather have unlimited squaw fish and carp or cats? I know I would rather have the cats.
Being afraid of bucket biologists is not even an issue. Bucket biologists can impact any place with any fish. Magic doesn't have walleye now. BTW Bullhead cats were planted into SFCR at one time by the F&G. In fact all the water I want breeders in have all been planted. The problem was for some areas it was 25 or so years ago when the snake was a vastly different river than it is now. To keep our section of the snake in squaw fish and carp production to keep down bucket biologists seems like a waste.
I contacted the IP and F&G today AGAIN to voice my opinion. Ron
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You have some good points on Brownlee, but I believe the same thing would happen without the cats. As I see it the bass would fill the niche that keeps the Crappie numbers down and we'd have a lot better Bass fishery.
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The bass are stunted in Milner. Nothing in there to keep them in check. So are the bluegills. Most people don't eat bass so populations on bass go unchecked in some water. That leads to small fish small fish leads to unhappy people. I read somewhere that a 12" bass in Lake Lowell is over 10 years old. That is not a good thing.
The F&G have been using tiger musky as a way to thin over abundant populations of bass, perch and other warm water fish. They tried to use Cats as a way to thin the Carey lake population of perch and bass. It didn't work. The cats they planted were not big enough to eat the other fish and they didn't live long enough to get big enough to do their job. That whole problem will have to be addressed in another way. Another fish that could reduce populations are wipers. I add them to the list of fish that could be used to control perch in Carey since they are hybrid.
I have heard of guys catching LARGE bass in Brownlee and I have heard of LARGE crappie, and Bluegills. I am thinking that they have all benefited from the large cat population. In the technical reports from the F&G I have read on the snake from Walters ferry to weiser. The data seems to say that with the rise of the population of cats, the Bass population have also risen. That is a time frame form 1972 to 2006. Ron
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I am for cats and more panfish especially big crappie and perch in our area.
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Quote:I read somewhere that a 12" bass in Lake Lowell is over 10 years old. That is not a good thing.
I don't believe that is true. I have fished Lake Lowell for over 50 years and the population is very healthy, with an average fish around 14-16". I'd guess they reach 12" in about 4 years, but I haven't asked the F&G.
I'm not opposed to your catfish idea, but the population of smallmouth in Brownlee was very good before the channel cats got established. The F&G biologists always said the population was stunted in Brownlee at a time when we were catching great stringers of large fish. They based their opinion upon going to Brownlee in the summer to catch bass to transplant in Lucky Peak, Arrowrock, and Anderson Ranch. If you fish the bank at that time of year you're going to catch mostly small fish. I testified to this before the F&G Commission over 30 years ago; asking for a change from our 20 fish bass limit. I was ignored until they hired a U of I student to do a study on the bass population in Brownlee and he came up with the same results I (and other bass fishermen) had several years earlier. As a result the limits were changed.
As you stated, the population of both Channel Cats and smallmouth is excellent in the Walter's Ferry to Weiser area. I found the greatest improvement to have come in that stretch when they stopped Simplots from dumping all their fertilizer plant phosphate tailings into the river. The crawdads had vanished, and then came back after the foam stopped floating down the river. I have noted an increase in foam the last couple of years, which results in greater weed growth on the stream bottom and thus more weeds pushed up against the banks. It's probably a never ending problem with the farms in our area.
Good luck with your channel cat project. They are good fighting fish that I enjoy catching incidentally while bass fishing.
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Hey friends!
I was reading through some old posts and I thought this one worthy of bumping back up to the top for everyone to see. I know there are a lot of people like me and Ron who would love to see some of this happen in our area, particularly the placement of limits on cats and increased stocking of cats in the magic valley. One reason is I know some people who have gone up to the river right by the Bruneau dunes and pulled out as many as 16-20 decent sized cats a day and keep them all. I will do whatever I can do to help on my part - I have some friends that would take action too that aren't part of the site. Ron, what is best for us to do? I know in your older posts you mentioned calling fish and game, would this still be the best or should we get a petition together or what? Everyone who fishes the magic valley and would like a larger sustainable population of catfish in the snake and elsewhere chime in here so we can try and get things moving!
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Yes calling the F&G region office at 208-324-4359 and talking to Scott Stanton or Doug Megargle are the men to talk to. Tell them that a self sustaining population is the goal but transplanting and stocking is also an option.
The transplanting of large cats from the snake river/ Brownlee will give the river the best opportunity for Natural recruitment. It is quite possible that they would not reproduce every year. Only on the low water years when the temp gets up. But that's okay.
That brings us to Limits. Since our area has not real natural recruitment. It is important that we have limits. The supply is not "unlimited" so why is harvest unlimited? A limit of some sort is needed.
I would like to see the area from Bell Rapids boat launch to Lower Salmon the target area for the Brownlee transplants. Some were transplanted last year into Dog creek. I am assuming that will happen again, but they were pounded. The Snake at Hagerman has the best chance in our area of natural recruitment happening. I would also like to see Crappie planted there as well.
This has just been a wish list for the most part. Most guys that want t fish for Crappie and Cats just head for Brownlee. It is easier than banging heads against walls. If enough guys call in and pester the regional office the better. Ron
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Channel catfish rarely reproduce by natural means in smaller waters because there aren't enough sutable nesting sites. They don't build nests like bass or sunfish. They lay their eggs in crevices like under fallen logs and inside holes in the bank. Lack of nesting sites leads to a low population of youngsters that gets gobbled up before they can outgrow most predators.
If the planted hatchery catfish aren't reproducing, I doubt the wild fish will either. Several of the ponds around Boise receive transplants of adult fish, and they haven't reproduced.
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