Fishing Forum

The other day I was reading an article about myself and I realized that I had broken a fishing law. I didn't do it intentionally or maliciously. I simply forgot about a rule on that particular body of water.

Given the recent discussions that we have had on this board I started to ask myself, "What is the correct and ethical way to inform someone if they post something on BFT that is illegal in the State of Idaho?"

In my case I truly would not have minded if someone had pointed out my error as long as the message was delivered in a way that was meant help me rather than hurt me.

I personally think we need to examine the nature of the violation and ask ourselves if this law was broken maliciously with ill intent or was the person just naive to the law. I realize the ignorance or naivity is no excuse or defense under the law. However, we are not the law. In my opinion we should be here to educate people and help them. If we do things in the spirit of being helpful and not hurtful our good intentions will be felt and the person who broke the law will be less likely to get defensive.

I noticed that the Utah board has added a clause that deals with illegal behavior. I liked the wording and so I am going to add this to the Idaho board as well.

[#0000ff]BFT does not support or encourage illegal activities. Any posts that directly or indirectly encourage such activities may be edited, deleted or identified as illegal. Members who then continue to encourage such actions may have stronger actions taken against them. All members are encouraged to hit the report post button, if they find a post about any illegal activities. [/#0000ff]
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[#000000]Now, lets have civil discussion on how we should handle things when we see something either in writing or pictures that percieve to be illegal.[/#000000]

Windriver
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Quote:[#0000ff]BFT does not support or encourage illegal activities. Any posts that directly or indirectly encourage such activities may be edited, deleted or identified as illegal. Members who then continue to encourage such actions may have stronger actions taken against them. All members are encouraged to hit the report post button, if they find a post about any illegal activities. [/#0000ff]

As a legal site matter that is the way all fishing boards have to handle posts about illegal activities. Once notified the board should pull down the offending post and send a pm with clarification of the law if possible and to protect the site, the pm should be accompanied with restating of the rules above.

As a teachable moment to others that is difficult where you can't leave a post reflecting illegal activities on the boards. The mod can always come back with a post about an issue without mentioning the poster by name and cite the problem and quote the corresponding code from the IDFG so that it does not reoccur.
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i agree 100% put it on there.
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Back a while a go I made a post about using cut bait. A lot of guys thought that it was illegal. The fact is it is not illegal to use and I had a CO come on to help. I have seen posts where guys "think" they know the rules but they are wrong. There have been other issues like possession limits and daily bag limits again the CO came on to help. A lot of guys just have it wrong. I don't mind if someone steps up and says maybe you need to read the regs. But if the guy that posts it is wrong I have seen it turn into a deal where you have to prove your innocent. I am a Reservist for the F&G. I can usually get info on a rule fairly quick. The problem is guys thinking they got it figured out and they don't. Ron
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Ya, that is another problem. People do react too quickly without checking out the facts. So again, it becomes a matter of education. In these situations I guess the best we can do is not get offended where offense is not intended and educate the person on the law in that area.

That is why I am bringing this up. There are so many variables.



MMDon: I agree with you 100%. Good information.

Windriver
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I think a polite PM is in order if someone posts that they have done something you feel is illegal, or unethical. Depending on the response, it either gets upchanneled to the moderators or posted on the board for all to view. I will point out when somone is blatantly wrong when citing the regs (or what they think the rules are). I am sorry if I offend you, but mis-informing the public is doing everyone a dis-service. I also try to stay out of unwinnable arguments like the recent bull trout thread.
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Not sure what the Mod functions on this board are but on other sites we simply put a thread in hide mode for clarification of the regs. Once clarification is received we either notify poster or unhide thread and add written clarification. The problem for fishing web sites is we must err on the side of caution to protect the site from frivolous law suits claiming we caused illegal activities, caused member to be ticketed for illegal activities or supported illegal activities. Much of this can be averted by adding the aforementioned disclaimer to the rules in a stickied form with a recommendation that all members familiarize themselves with the F&G rules for their waters and a note that the site is not responsible for content that may or may not be erroneous.
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I like this rule and we should put it into effect.

The thread the other day got way out of hand and should've been handled thru PM's. Instead it went into an accusation after accusation and some hurt feelings.

We as moderators probably should've stepped in sooner and I apologize for not doing that as I'm still learning the ropes. I did delete one post that was brought to my attention.
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No problem Bassnbob. I am just trying to flesh out what is the best way to take care of these kind of things both in the legal sense and in the ethical and human sense.

We all make mistakes and I for one would like to help people understand the law rather then have them attacked or beaten up about it.

Mojo1 brings up a good point that we can't let bad information be spread or we are doing the public a disservice. On the other hand we can inform people in a way that is tactful.

Windriver
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I'm getting fed up hearing about how I "attacked" the individual or how he was "beaten up on". My first post on the subject WAS tactful, and if you go back and look at it, you'll see it was meant to give the guy a heads up. I even stated that I didn't think he meant to do anything unethical. It was only after he repeatedly continued to insist that "may not be taken out of the water" is somehow ambiguous enough to need further clarification that the thread went south. The regulations in that situation are as clear as you can possibly get, and considering those photos STILL haven't been taken down I don't see what good making rules like this will do unless someone has the balls to enforce them.
Clearly nobody does in the Utah forum.
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Since you were correct in the way you pointed out the problem and the problem itself, why sweat it . . .
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First of all I never mentioned you in any way shape or form. I did make mention of recent events, but the Bull Trout controversy has not been the only time this has happened.

I was hoping to simply get some feed back on how everybody felt on this issue, and how we can deal with it in the future.

So far I have gotten some good ideas and some productive advice. However, it is hard to stay focused when you insist on attacking my manhood.[crazy]

Windriver
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Ooooooooo somebody is a tad touchy[sly]

As a message board junkie I have seen this problem on just about every board that deals with hunting or fishing.

You always got some feller that thinks it is his duty to point out everything that he thinks is wrong. It always degenerates into a mudfest.
Best thing to do as a mod team is just nuke it before it gets to far out of hand, send the involved posters a pm telling them why and live to post another day.
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Like it or not a boards main job is to teach. As was pointed out the poster did not understand the law and if a board only accomplishes making us better stewards of the biomass it has done an excellent job. If I see someone doing something illegal out of ignorance of the law I'm certainly going to point out the errors of the posters ways. That isn't attacking it's teaching.

Now if the poster decides the law doesn't apply to him . . .
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I have to agree with mojo1 a polite Pm letting the offender know what they have done.

Jim
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I have been somewhat active on both the Idaho and mostly the Utah BFT sites for several years now and have notice this trend that I think is repulsive. It is almost to the point that I won't post anymore because you get clobbered every time you do. It does not matter if it is blatantly illegal behavior or someone thinking you should have let a legal catch go instead of keeping it. It seem we have a huge bunch of egotist that feel it is "my way or the highway" like it or not. I have seen it on everything from simple spelling errors all of the way to interpretations of the law. I feel I need to do things ethically and lawfully and if I do something wrong let me know in a polite PM, NOT IN AN OPEN PUBLIC FORUM! Let's get back to some basic civility or people like me will call it quits!
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Several excellent ideas presented. One that I have often used in the past when these type of debates have come up is to go to the regs, find the part regarding the question at hand and then I will either post with the page, paragraph then a quote of the applicable rule. The other option I've done is go to the online regs and copy and paste the rules directly to the forum. Rarely is more clarification needed, the information is available for everyone to see and there is little else to argue. Given there is often room for interpretation d/t wording, but without that a lot of lawyers would be out of a job []
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I agree with you. Your first post was reasonable, and I think I'd said as much. I'm sorry YOU got beat up on, and obviously ruffled some feathers. Seems you're still feeling ruffled.

I NEVER meant to cause a controversy, nor did anyone up there intentionally break any laws. As has been stated in this thread - folks THINK they know what the laws are, and insist they are right. I am not alone in thinking there is ambiguity regarding Bull handling. BUT, I think we are all in agreement - the focus of the law is to protect the fish. I applaud you for your concern.

My main objection was the notion that a post of mine showing photos of folks I didn't even know might be used as "proof of an alleged crime", and you even suggested forwarding them to DWR. THAT is the kind of thing I think should be handled through private channels, not public threats. THAT will (and has) only discourage(d) people from daring to make posts.

And I did just receive a request to remove the photos (From the Utah board), and have done so. But I'll note - there are other photos on other posts showing bulls out of water, and sturgeon heads lifted for a photo. Even mention of a DWR officer helping measure a bull out of water prior to release.

I am not going to change any of the verbage - as the Idaho post is locked. Windriver - if there's any words you want to take out, go ahead. If you want to remove or "hide" the post - go for it! But I think the discussion was educational, I will say again - I appreciate your efforts (and the other moderators) to manage the site, and it's content. Further, you're ongoing efforts to educate and maintain civility on the site.

I'm sorry if any of my contributions have caused any controversy, or led to any tensions. NEVER my intention!

Lets get back to fish-talk!
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And I did just receive a request to remove the photos (From the Utah board), and have done so. But I'll note - there are other photos on other posts showing bulls out of water, and sturgeon heads lifted for a photo. Even mention of a DWR officer helping measure a bull out of water prior to release.

[#000050]I agree and also noticed several Sturgeon being lifted out of the water.......... [:/] In a very recent post.[/#000050]
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