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[#0000ff]This is the time of year that ice fishermen catch a lot of "heat" from passionate troutaholics about NOT allowing trout to flop on the ice or snow. This issue has already surfaced on the Idaho board this season and has been tossed out here on a couple of threads. I was also contacted by a float tuber - fly flinger who was attacked on the fly fishing board...and in a PM...for posting a picture of a trout from a community pond laying briefly on the snow for a photo.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Last year I started trying to research the subject of what harm it does to fish to allow them to lay on the ice for a short period while unhooking them for release or while taking pictures. I am a pretty fair internet jockey but I have still been unable to find any published reports on mortality figures for subjecting fish to brief "time outs" on the ice or snow.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]There are those among the fly fishing groups who bash ice anglers for putting trout on ice..."because it is like putting your 
on an ice cube." That is about the most preposterous thing I have heard so far. I cannot ever recall seeing a fish flash frozen to the ice upon contact. In fact, as most of us dedicated ice anglers know, fish seldom freeze to the ice at all...even after hours at sub zero temps. They become fish sicles but still do not freeze to the ice...and are easily gathered up when it is time to leave.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I do not discount that extended exposure to below freezing temperatures will adversely affect the eyes, the gills and the outer layers of skin and flesh on ANY fish. But many fish seemingly have an "antifreeze" component in their living tissues that reduce or negate short term effects of extreme cold and they may be released with little apparent damage after a couple of pics.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I believe that any fish you plan to release should be released in the hole, with forceps removing the hook. But, whenever you bring the fish "on deck" it is probably more harmful to lay it on a dry cloth surface...or heavy gloves...than on the ice. Snow and ice do much less to remove protective slime layers than dry rough cloth surfaces...or dry hands.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I have been ice fishing for many years, and have fished with others much more knowledgeable than myself in matters of fish biology. I have never had any of these fellow anglers suggest that it is wrong to allow fish to rest briefly on the ice or snow. And, if you watch the fishing shows on TV, there are many recognized authorities on fish and fishing that routinely slide their fish out onto the ice as a part of the landing and control process. Hopefully they would not do that if it was likely to increase the mortality.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Without input or published facts from recognized authorities on the subject, I tend to discount the seriousness of the problem...of short term exposure to ice or snow. But, I REALLY DON'T KNOW. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Anybody else out there have personal opinions or observations they can contribute?[/#0000ff]
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Ice is 31 deg and the water is 32 deg, not much difference. Maybe more damage by holding them up in the wind (wind chill) for a picture than laying them on the ice for the same picture.
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i have not read anything that states putting the fish on the ice for a brief period
will hurt them. I have read that over handling of trout can hurt them, so I don't see a problem with laying it on the ice if need be to help control the fish for hook removal. There are numerous books on trout fishing and everything that I have read says to get the fish in and off the hook as quickly as possible a prolonged fight stresses the fish and increases mortality.
I was always under the assumption that you needed to get them in as quickly as possible and as long as they are not bleeding from the gills and blatantly handled roughly they should be fine. I grew up fishing for trout mostly and majority of those I caught and didn't keep swam away, I would imagine if they were going to die they would do so in a short time not days later, I like to think I am doing everything I can to insure the fish will survive but I am not an expert and never will claim to be one. [fishon]
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Really good question! I would not think that a short stint of laying on ice or snow would be any worse that getting "roughed" up by neoprene gloves with rubber grips. IMO
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good write up Tubedude, my opinion is planters (trout) are planted cause the DWR know they will be caught, killed, and consumed...some live long lives but most are caught by anglers all summer and winter, they are aggressive and hungry...why care if they are lying on the ice...
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I would imagine with all the pressure that Strawberry gets through the ice, the average size fish would not have increased so nicely if this was much of a problem. Seems to me most people are doing a good job of releasing the slot fish, as the average size fish has dramatically increased.
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Due to lack of info as you pointed out, there is also no proof that it doesn't do any harm either.
I wouldn't imagine it is a concern confined to just fly fishers though, but rather any fisher that enjoys fishing for trout (or any other species)
Just a respect for the species.
There are times I am sure that the ice is much colder as is the air temps, not always, but times.
There are some anglers that are quick to release the fish and some that are not.
As far as TV programs, they hold the fish out of the water for very long time and ice fishing is no different. They are not good examples of C&R.
Speaking of C&R, that is the concern here. Allot of people eat their catch and this does not pertain to those. This concern is for those that choose to release the fish.
http://www.recycledfish.org/safe-angling...elease.htm
I have seen what ice can to do a line, so, to me , a fish flopping around on it can't be good. (as pointed out in the link)
These are living breathing things and a little TLC can go a long way.
I will be the first to admit that fishing is a blood sport, but taking a little extra care like de-barbing hooks or like you Tube Dude, a circle hook, just means that everyone can enjoy fishing and maybe even the same fish.
Plus, BRIEFLY is interpreted in sooooo many different ways
Excellent subject.
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"As far as TV programs, they hold the fish out of the water for very long time and ice fishing is no different. They are not good examples of C&R."
[cool][#0000ff]Definitely gotta agree with ya on that one. I have seen some very poor examples of good fish handling. On a recent In Fisherman program they hoisted a large lake trout (mack) out of the hole by the gills and then held it vertically...by the gills. It was visibly bleeding and when they released it "unharmed" there was quite a bit of blood on the ice next to the hole. I wouldn't take any bets on the chances for survival for that fish.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Also totally agree about respecting our resources. Doesn't matter that a lot of the trout are planters, and high mortality is factored into the program. If you make an effort to take care of the fish you release the chances are much better they will survive until someone else gets a shot at them.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There is always SOME percentage of mortality, no matter what method of fishing we use and how carefully we handle the fish. But it is for sure the fish will have a better shot at survival if released quickly, with little handling, rather than being allowed to flop on the ice for 10 minutes before release...or allowed to freeze solid before being taken home.[/#0000ff]
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I fell you are right about ice or snow... But I do fish from my boat even in winter and I have seen from when I put a fish on my deck in winter with temps from 15 or lower, the fish will lose scales from them sticking to any metal they may touch but not on snow or ice for a short time..
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This is a good and timely topic. The bottom line in all of the discussion should be to keep ANY handling of a trout you intend to release to the barest minimum. I think if you are careful with the trout, placing it gently on the snow or ice for a quick picture can be done without much harm. Remember that the very cold temperatures can damage exposed skin areas on the fish just as they do your hands. I like to use a pair of forceps and remove the hook while the fish is still in the water at the hole. I seldom photograph any trout that I am going to release. If you are going to eat the fish, take all the photos you want and post them here.
Mike
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Good subject matter Pat.
As most tropical fish keepers know, temp change will often send fish into shock and usually results in death if proper temp acclamation is performed.
That bring said, I'd suggest that perhaps temp change, air temp verses water temp, usually isnt such a problem during cold weather season as it might be during warm weather.
My bigger concern would have to be the "slime layer". Those of us that wander the ice a lot have all seen the slime smeared across the cap as the trout flop around. Its mho that it make little difference whether the trout is laying on hard clear ice or snow, it all removes slime, and as we know slime is the protective device for fish against bacterial infections. Perhaps there is less chance of bacterial infection during cold water situations but I believe the risk is there none the less.
BTW, why do white bass turn pink/red while laying on the ice or snow?
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I believe you and I had an exchange on the subject a year ago that possibly prompted your search. I also did the search thing then and did not come up with any studies that showed that increased trout C&R mortality is seen when ice fishing. A few items to consider.
1. While ice fishing, the water temperature is cool and uniform. This favors water oxygenation. One of the killers in C&R of trout caught in lakes during the summer is catching them in deep, cold water below the thermocline and dragging them to the warm, relatively unoxygenated water of the surface. It doesn't matter how lovingly you release some of these, you will lose many. The DWR goes so far as to suggest maybe not C&Ring some of these fish caught during the hottest time of the year. This is a problem you do not have to deal with during ice fishing! I am confident that the cutts I catch in Strawberry through the ice have a much greater survival than the ones that people are dredging up from the deeps in August, regardless of the method the August angler employs.
2. Protecting the slime layer is something that is important whether the fish is caught summer or winter. Quick releases are beneficial either way. It should be noted though that some pathogens like anchor worms are more active in WARMER temps, so there could be less risk of sickness in the colder water.
3. As a rule, it seems to be a rare occurrence to have a fish "swallow the hook" while ice fishing. (Yes, it can occasionally happen, but most of my fish are caught right in the snout). Most of these fish are much more easily released than a deep hooked summer fish.
4. Obviously, common sense holds true that the same good C&R technique applies whether in summer or winter!
5. Coldfooters question.; I see the redness you describe from two sources. I see those lesions in deep caught perch, crappies, bass etc caught from water over about 40-50 ft deep. The air bladder isn't the only thing that is hurting fish brought up from that deep. Barotrauma IS a genuine mortality factor in many species caught ice fishing.
As for the shallow caught white bass, I do not know for sure, but I would suspect that it is mechanical bruising. As luck would have it, I was one of the guys enjoying the bounty of PBH yesterday and harvested a few whites, along with perch, gills and crappies for an evening fish fry. The fish weren't put in the snow, but were put directly into my sled, and the ambient temperature was about 40 degrees, so any freezing was not possible. All of the harvested fish were red like you describe, which would indicate that it was due to something other than freezing.
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This is a good topic and I don't know if enough studies have been done to officially qualify ice as being worse than the ground. I have read that ice and snow shock the fish and can cause damage to the slime layer. I am thinking that the air temperature would have a big role to play in that. Apparently the gills can be subject to cold damage. Warmer and slushier may be better. But I don't have any references to studies on that.
That being said, I am guilty of putting fish on the ground or grass for a picture. I usually wet the grass first, but apparently even that isn't the best. Oh well! We try. If I am in doubt of the survivability, then, if it is legal to harvest, I do. I eat a lot of fish, not many trout though, I just don't care to, not that they are in anyway "special". Many other species are tastier!!!
The problems, that I understand for C&R of all fish, not just trout, are many. Most don't result in instant mortality. First is the amount of time they are out of the water, next is how long was the fish fought, then damage to the gills from sever cold, dirt, or handling, then protection of the slime layer, last is temperature shock, including warm as well as cold. Low oxygen levels in warm water is a big baddy.
Most of these can result in what is referred to as delayed mortality. They may swim away, but not make it later, whether it is one hour or days later. The slime layer is the fish's defense against disease, fungus, and parasites. Damage to it can result in death 4 to 6 months later. There will always be angling mortalities, that is part of fishing, but we can try to reduce the numbers of accidental mortality. You wouldn't carelessly trample and uproot young plants and fruits in your garden as you harvest the ripe fruits. To me fishing is much the same kind of stewardship.
From my own research it seems that wet hands are the best for lifting fish, and neoprene gloves next.
I wrote to Idaho Fish and Game they were cautious in their reply.
Here is my question and here is their answer:
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 10:53 AM
To: IDFGINFO
Subject: Winter fish release
This message was sent from the IDFG website.
Can you tell me if laying a fish on snow or ice for a picture is detrimental to their survival? Are there any studies on delayed mortality and ice fishing or sever cold conditions? Is shock a factor, or do the gills and mucous layer receive injury? Is there a "best" surface to use?
Thank you
Answer:
We don’t recommend that you place the fish on the ground if you are going to release it after you take the picture.
These are our recommendations for photographing your catch to give them the best chance at survival after release:
Taking Photographs (2011-2012 Fishing Rules, page 47)
Photographs of a trophy catch can provide priceless memories of a great fishing trip, but anglers should use care to take the
photo responsibly. Here are things you can do to capture that special image and allow the fish to fight another day (remember
– sturgeon can’t be removed from the water):
• Have the camera ready and the shot framed before removing the fish from the water.
• When lifting a fish from the water wet your hands before touching the fish and support the fish with both hands as
you gently lift it from the water.
• Strive to hold the fish over the water so if it struggles from your hands it will fall back in the water and not onto a hard
surface such as a rock or a boat floor.
• Hold the fish out of the water only as long as it takes to take a picture.
idfginfo
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I have to agree with you TD. I think fish, trout in particular, are tougher than a lot of fly flingers and members of the C&R gospel would have you believe.
That said there is no reason to touch their gills and you do need to get them back in the water in a timely fashion, etc. They are not invincible - but I do think they can handle a brief encounter on the ice.
At the end of the day though, as some have stated, mortality is a part of this sport - even if you don't take any home to eat. If it bothers you - maybe you should find another sport. [/#005028]
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"BTW, why do white bass turn pink/red while laying on the ice or snow?"
[cool][#0000ff]Lots of fish change color when brought into the bright light of day from relative darker environment. It's usually a pigment change in the skin, triggered by sunlight or at least brighter light. You also see it with bluegills and other species...that go from pale pink to bright bluegill patterns. And yellow perch sometimes go from a washed out pale yellow to the characteristic perch pattern.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I always just figured that being "white" bass they were more prone to sunburn. I know my white protected skin gets pink a lot faster than areas that are exposed to sunlight more often.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I got a question for you. Why do you turn blue when you are skinny dipping in icy water? I shrink from the thought.[/#0000ff]
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"Apparently the gills can be subject to cold damage."
I have heard this too, (and again with no studies to back it up) but keep in mind that a large percentage of the fishes blood supply is pumping through those gills. The strong FLOW of blood through the gills will confer a protective property against freezing. The delicate membranous layer where oxygen is exchanged could be at risk of harm if directly contacted by ice or snow (or ground or grass) however.
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"Most of these can result in what is referred to as delayed mortality. They may swim away, but not make it later, whether it is one hour or days later."
[cool][#0000ff]Excellent point. That is precisely why it is so difficult to be certain about why one method is better or worse than others. Unless somebody spends the time and money to track large numbers of fish...after they are released...with a wide variety of handling factors...it is virtually impossible to be sure of the percentages. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Logic and basic knowledge of fishy anatomy and physiology tells us that the less trauma and handling the better. But what is minimal and what is critical? And, by whose definition? And how are they qualified to make those assertions?[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]That is the whole point of my post. Can we get a consensus of opinion on at least some issues and agree to leave it open for future study in others?[/#0000ff]
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[quote TubeDude]"[#0000ff]I got a question for you. Why do you turn blue when you are skinny dipping in icy water? I shrink from the thought.[/#0000ff][/quote]
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Please, don't take it wrong, or that I am trying to arguing with you or anyone else on BFT. I am only providing the information I have found so far. People can take it or not.
For me, as I stated before, I have changed some of my previous practices, as I have learned more. To me the answer from Idaho Fish and Game basically says - It is best if you don't put them down on any surface if you are planning on releasing the fish.
I release the fish I do because I enjoy catching them more than eating them! I fish with the equipment that I do, because it is what I find suits me and my style best, and I have used most other methods in the past. I don't think other methods are "worse" or "bad", just different.
And I sure don't have any problem with keeping limits! Keep all the fish you want, to eat, or put on your wall. If it is legal, then it is ok, and I will cheer and salute your catch along with you.
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It seems the consensus from the people I have talked to is that it is okay to pull them out of the water as long as you are the one catching fish and not your buddy that is fishing next to you.[
] The qualified individual for making the decision is the guy catching the fish.
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