Fishing Forum

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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 3]This subject comes up every year. And I’m always amazed that it’s the same questions every year. I think what some people don’t realize is that not all waters within the state are being managed by the state. A few that are would include Willard, East Canyon, Rockport, and Jordanelle. A few that are not would include Pineview, Strawberry/Soldier Creek, Newton, and Mantua. The state managed properties are, for the most part, being run by state employees and the fees collected go into the states general fund and help cover the salaries of employees, maintenance of facilities, upgrades (like adding water/electric hookups to some sites at Hyrum State Park), etc.[/size][/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 3]Pineview and Strawberry/Soldier Creek are managed by the U.S. Forest Service (USFS). And as you know, or should know, all Federal agencies have been dealing with funding cutbacks and reductions in employees for at least the last 2 decades. In order for them to survive and function in this environment, many agencies (like the USFS) have turned to ‘contracting out’ to run their facilities. In the case of Pineview and Strawberry/Soldier Creek, American Land & Leisure (AL&L) got the contract. They are a private company that is in business to make money. So they have a fee schedule (probably with contractual restrictions imposed by the Federal contract) that is designed to cover their operating expenses (including paying a fee to USFS to have the contract) and make a profit. AL&L is NOT under contract to provide improvements to the facilities they manage for the USFS. That responsibility still belongs to the USFS.[/size][/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 3]So when you go to one of these facilities and get all ticked off at the deplorable condition of the launch facilities, why are you taking it out on the AL&L employee running it? He or she has absolutely zero control or influence over the situation. They’re just there trying to do a thankless job and earn a few extra bucks to make their retirement years a little less financially stressful.[/size][/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 3]Bottom line here is that nothing is free anymore. We are going to have to pay for our recreation one way or the other. Utah has their facilities and fee schedule, the USFS has theirs and a fee schedule, and there are even some private ones out there with another fee schedule (like Echo). And Echo is charging $15 a day to use their launch. None of these agencies honor other agency passes. That’s why the State Parks Pass isn’t acceptable at USFS facilities and vice versa. Accept it. Deal with it. If you want to play, you’re going to have to pay.[/size][/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 3]And don’t forget, there are actually some reservoirs out there that DON’T have a fee like Causey, Lost Creek, Newton, Birch Creek, and Woodruff. But some of them don’t have a boat launch.[/size][/#800000][/font]
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dubob is correct. The thing that chaps me is that I purchase a Golden Eagle Pass for Powell and the Gorge. It is supposed to get you into all Federal recreation areas, EXCEPT two, Strawberry/Soldier Creek and Pineview. I can go to any National Forest Campground, any National Park, Recreation area, camp, fish, boat, EXCEPT Pineview and Strawberry !!! That is screwy !!!

Well said Bob!
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I also usually buy the Golden Eagle pass for federal lands. It is good only for entrance fees-- " The Golden Eagle Passport does NOT cover or reduce use fees, such as fees for camping, swimming, parking, boat launching, or cave tours. It is valid for entrance fees only." However the problem is the private companies and Salt Lake City ( For the national forest in Millcreek) among others decide to ignore that it's valid for entry to Federal Lands when they are manning a booth. Pretty sure it's not legal. On the website you can purchase it certainly doesn't list Federal Lands it isn't valid. It sucks to have to pay 3 times ( taxes, pass for Federal Land entry and entry fee)to get into Federal lands in these cases. My understanding is even charging for an entry fee once for just parking or using undeveloped areas at Federal lands is in violation of current Federal laws--" The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (“REA”)
prohibits the United States Forest Service from charging fees
“[s]olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking
along roads or trailsides,” for “hiking through . . . without
using the facilities and services,” and “[f]or camping at undeveloped sites . . . .” 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1)(A), (D) & (E).
This isn't to say they can't charge for things like camping and launching but it appears many groups are imposing fees illegally. I know this is in the courts now. I'm not against paying for use of Federal Lands but do consider 3 times for one use excessive. Hopefully some rational policy can be developed to cover the cost but I'm not hopeful as it would have to involve politicians.
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The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (“REA”)
prohibits the United States Forest Service from charging fees
“[s]olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking
along roads or trailsides,” for “hiking through . . . without
using the facilities and services,” and “[f]or camping at undeveloped sites . . . .” 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1)(A), (D) & (E).

Not sure the line is going through the end of my post so I'm trying again on part of it.[reply]
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I have never been charged extra for a launch fee when using the Golden Eagle Pass. At Powell, that may be due to the fact that you purchase a yearly boat sticker also. Never had a launch fee at the Gorge though !! Years ago I asked the head ranger at Strawberry what the deal was and he was unable to give me an answer, other than contact the Main Office in Heber. Several calls and letters to the Heber Office were never answered, so my guess is that they don't want to talk to anyone about it. Don't fish Pineview much any more, so I don't worry about that. Echo is private as it Mantua and Hyrum, so they have their own fees. Lindon and AF on Utah Lake are also private, so they charge their own fees vs. the State Park.

I suspect they know it isn't technically legal so just give you the run around. I've encountered the same thing the one time I asked and tried to get an answer. Looks like Big Brother didn't like me posting the Federal law and tried to cross it out on both attempts[].
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I think people forget Boating is a luxury & with all luxuries you got to pay the fees.
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The Gorge doesnt really have launch fees (on the WY side)...not sure about UT....at Buckboard they charge 15 bucks for parking your truck and trailer. The rest of the Gorge has a $5 use fee which applies whether ur bank fishing, camping, boating, etc. This is basically an honor system, so I think a lot of people dont pay this fee. I'm not sure of the penalty, but we pay it whenever we go there. Its cheaper than most launch fees.
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[#005000]Removed because I felt like it[/#005000]

In thought what does this have to do with fishing should be moved to a rant and rave or general BS area sheesh
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[quote Warchild[#005000]
I do not see it as a luxury its a right by what my tax dollar...
As long as my tax dollar is funding it.. IT IS MY RIGHT..
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If you feel that strongly about it don't pay the fee tell the CO that its your right to use the facilities cause your taxes paid for it. Better yet tell the CO your tax dollars are paying for his salary .... baaah baaah
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Removed because it was nothing but noise

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Yep then I guess Im a sheep for being a law abiding citizen but other than crying on a fishing board what are you doing to change the laws ? Baaah Baaah...

There always someone wanting something for free call it what you want but don't boat if your not willing to pay the fee. ( The way I see it its 1 less boat on the water )

Dont get me wrong I hate paying for somethings that should be free but the fact of the matter is those dollars are recycled back into the park you enjoy fishing and boating.

What do you think the dwr employees are getting filthy rich from boat fee's if you knew or care about the waters you boat you know the Parks Budget was ripped in half and if up to the Gov we would be strip mining them all and reallocating the water to the strip mines.
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Removed due to noise
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Still doesnt answer my question any one can come on the board and call people sheep and cry about the fees but what are you doing to change the laws ? Or are you sitting back paying the fee waiting other to change the law ? Sounds like a sheep to me ... Baaahh Baaah
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Relax guys. I just payed a fee Monday along Mirror Lake that is being imposed on me illegally. Same as I don't fish public owned waterways flowing through private land since Utah enacted an unconstitutional law. We don't all have time to go to trial or sue over every illegal action of some branch of our Government. I'll save that for bigger issues. I can think of dozens of illegal actions Utah is doing and otherwise I'd spend my life in court. .And I know of SLC and the feds of enforcing things that aren't legal either. I'll wait for the courts to correct these injustices even if it takes time.
Here's a link to the law enacted in 2004 regarding this issue http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/Recreat..._page.html
If you don't want to read the whole thing here's a summary of which fees aren't allowed on all Federal Lands: The Act prohibits certain fees for:
General access to national forests and grasslands and Bureau of Land Management areas;
Horseback riding, walking through, driving through, or boating through areas where no facilities or services are used;
Access to overlooks or scenic pullouts;
Undesignated parking areas where no facilities are provided for
Picnicking along roads or trails; and
In addition individuals under 16 will not be charged an entrance or standard amenity fee.
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Removed for noise
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[quote Warchild]I do not see it as a luxury it’s a right by what my tax dollar... As long as my tax dollar is funding it.. IT IS MY RIGHT..[/quote][font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]Says who? Specifically, where is it written that you have that right? Is it in the US Constitution? Nah! The Constitution is a plan that provides the rules for our government.[/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]Is it in the Bill of Rights? The Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution with ten amendments that contained a list of individual rights and liberties which the government cannot take away from its citizens. Seventeen more amendments have been added since then. I've read all 27 of them and I'm pretty sure there isn't one of them that say you have the right to access Federal property just because you pay taxes.[/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]But then, I'm not a Constitutional Scholar. So, please, help me out here. Which of the 27 Amendments to the US Constitution actually gives you the right to access Federal property because you pay taxes? Enquiring minds want to know.[/#800000][/font]
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Water rights are generally established pursuant to State law, but there are exceptions, most notably, the concept of federal reserved water rights. Reserved water rights are rights that are established when the federal government reserves land for a specific federal purpose. Courts have held that there is an implied water right to satisfy the primary purposes of the reservation. An examples of reservations include Indian reservations, national wildlife refuges, federal forests and military base
I understand that but what I will never understand is lands and waters designated for public usage were extra fees are collected when they are already funded by tax dollars.
Its double taxation its out right theft..
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