just curious about the walleye and perch recovery. Wouldn't it be beneficial to the fishery and recovery effort to release all perch and eyes so they can spawn? or does it even really matter? I see people complain about how poor it is compared to the good ole days and how good it use to be but everytime they pull up a walleye or perch they take it home. I understand if it really is small potatoes but just curious if it makes a difference at all? I don't fish for walleye or perch, I'm straight up all about the pike, so I'd love seeing them have more food! I love catching pike and releasing the bigger ones so everyone can enjoy how much fun it is to hook them, but I do know keeping some little pike is in the interest of the fishery. I understand spawning conditions and the varying water table is a big deal at yuba, so does fisherman restraint really not matter much at all in the grand scheme of things? and not trying to judge anyone, I believe as long as fisherman are legal they can do whatever they want, whether it's keep all the perch or big pike they feel like keeping. I'm curious about the biology standpoint and if restraint factors into it down there.
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not sure one way or the other.. i have seen years were there are no perch at yuba and then the next year they are back.. but thats when the lakes and ponds above yuba had perch to.. not the case now...
but on a different point i have heard form 2 different sources that there is a plan to net perch out of fish lake this spring before they spawn and put then in Yuba.. that should help yuba out a lot..
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I too am a pike angler, preferring the Esox members above all other freshwater species. Although I think the current regulations for pike are excessive, I don't claim to understand the biology behind the 20 fish limits. I would hope, however that the larger pike are not killed and discarded.
Pike are great table fare, especially after mastering the filleting and removal of the Y bones. Many anglers I know believe they are only rivaled by walleye for taste. It is great to kill and eat what you catch, but please don't waste the flesh of these great fighting fish.
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pezvela, I think you and I share the same pike affliction, maybe we can get out and fish in the spring and compare notes sometime! I too wish people would release the bigger pike and bigger pike being anything above 34 inches in my book, because they are too much fun to catch and might as well share the resource because chances are that big pike you just caught that made your day was the result of another angler releasing it! and there's plenty of small pike to take home if they wish to do so for food. But whatever floats your boat and I understand people like to keep everything they catch and it's their right to do so. I'd like to here Tube dudes take on voluntary restraint on perch and eyes while they're trying to recover and if it makes a difference or not, or if it's all about the water level?
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Quote:Yuba Reservoir, Juab County
• Limit 20 northern pike, only 1 northern
pike may be over 36 inches.
There's a reason for the limit at Yuba. If the pike were to eat just one perch per week, that's 52 perch that aren't there to spawn in the spring. If you're releasing 8 or 10 or 12 pike, they are taking 400 to 600 perch from the spawning pool. And when the perch are small, they're eating a LOT more than one perch per week. Maybe a dozen at a time. Leave a trophy sized pike to be caught again. Harvest EVERY pike that isn't worthy of being on the wall. At least until the situation for perch and walleye improves.
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those mid 30's pike eat a lot of carp, and that's a good thing! just sayin! [
] but there's a boom of those teens and 20 inch pike that will suck up a lot of perch, have at it with the little ones if eating and keeping fish is your thing. but those awesome tugs the bigger pike give you just ain't worth removing them for a fillet or the dumpster method lots of guys end up doing because they've never heard of Y bones.
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sorry, getting distracted with selective harvest on pike. So if that's one of the main reasons for the pike limit increase as I understand it, not just only so the pike don't crash. So why doesn't the division suspend limits on perch and eyes and have a mandatory catch and release until they rebound a bit?
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I also keep hearing about the limits being increased so the pike don't crash and eat themselves out of house and home, but every pike I've caught, especially all the 30-39 inch ones have all been incredibly healthy with some shoulders on them!!! Are the carp not a good source that's replaced perch for them? I know carp minnows get big fast but haven't all the pike in the upper 20's and low 30 range pretty much made it and aren't at risk because they can eat some bigger sized carp? we don't have to worry about carp crashing. Sorry, I have lots of questions and I like to hear the answers and biology behind it.
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"I'd like to here Tube dudes take on voluntary restraint on perch and eyes while they're trying to recover and if it makes a difference or not, or if it's all about the water level"
[#0000FF]Poor old Yuba. It has really been through a lot of cycles over the years. The good ones have been memorable. The downers have been heartbreaking. I have always had a special fondness for Yuba...even when she gets ugly.
Because it is what it is...and has been...and will be forever...Yuba is tough for DWR to "manage". They have no minimum pool reserves to insure that the fish will even survive from year to year. The Delta power plant owns the water...along with some farmers...and they have the right to drain the lake dry any year they want. But guess who gets the blame for the ups and downs of Yuba. Yep. DWR.
If I were to lodge any kind of criticism of the overall management program it would be that it is more reactive than proactive. Biologists analyze current conditions, fish populations and angler success or lack thereof. Then their findings are put into the hopper, along with recommendations, and it may be a couple of years before any changes can be made. With Yuba, every year is a new year and what was current last year is long gone this year. There was a limit of 10 on perch during the time when the population had exploded. But when the pike started cleaning out the perch...and trout...the limit for perch was increased to 50...and nobody could even scratch out more than a half dozen on a trip...if they were lucky. The limit is still 50. Good luck with that.
The combination of a few surviving pike...after the lake was dried up during the drought and to make dam renovations...and very few perch and walleyes left in the lake...led to a pike explosion at the expense of all other species. Carp also exploded and contributed to the perch problems. Schools of carp would encircle newly hatched perch fry and mop them up like tuna feeding on sardines. The poor perch were getting it from all directions and at all stages of their life cycle.
Yes, there are a few elusive surviving perch left in Yuba. And they may or may not bring off an occasional spawn...but not in most of our recent low water years. If the water level is not high enough to cover the shoreline vegetation for the perch to spawn their eggs cannot remain above the silt...and the carp mouths.
Northern pike are feeding machines and opportunists. They eat whatever doesn't eat them first. And it is common for big pike to eat smaller pike. Since perch are no longer present in Yuba in large schools, the pike do not regularly target them. But they will readily munch any that swim within range. Ditto for small carp. Yuba is overrun with carp, but would be even worse if not for the attentions of pike. Almost all pike kept for the fillet table contain one or more carp in their innards. I have heard of anglers finding carp upwards of 16 inches in larger pike. Smaller pike are voracious feeders...consuming a dozen or more baby carp at a time during the first months after the carp spawn. But, by late fall, a lot of the new carplets are already growing large enough for only the larger pike to munch.
My feelings and observations? No harm in keeping the occasional perch or walleye you catch by accident while fishing for pike. Removing one potential spawner will have little or no affect on the remaining population as a whole. Tossing it back will only give the big toothy guys another shot at them...and in many cases they may not make it back down to the bottom...after being distressed from the trip up through your ice hole.
Interesting change in the limits on northern pike in Yuba. But good biology. Like smallmouths, pike are most active and aggressive feeders in their smaller sizes...kinda like your teenage son. 20 smaller pike will definitely consume more available food resources than a bigger pike...over 36 inches.
It is apparent that DWR is trying to take advantage of the pike glut on Yuba by establishing a trophy fishery...and encouraging heavy harvest of the smaller ones. Okay by me. Like most pikers I prefer fish under 30 inches for the table. And, since I have a large extended family who all like fish I would have no problem keeping as many small ones as I catch...under about 30 inches or so...up to the limit of 20.
I applaud the proposal to transfer some perch from Fish Lake. Heaven knows that a few perch missing from Fish Lake will not harm that fishery. But a few added to Yuba...each year for two or three years...might just help a new population to become established enough to make it through the gauntlet of the predators.
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good info there TD! I was always curious about the pike "crash" that some anglers say is coming. But I figured the pike in the upper 20's and 30 inch range were ok with carp as a steady replacement and a viable enough food source. These bumper crop of small pike in the teens seem like the most vulnerable that we'd see die off. But as of now they all seem really really healthy and eating lots of carp. I guess for perch, keep your fingers crossed that these stocking efforts magically hit at the right time and we get some consecutive high water years and then enjoy it until it goes bust again. I'm envious of those pig perch and all those eyes you guys caught back in the day.
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As a fellow Yuba fanatic I must implore you to give Mike Slater from the DNR a call or email.
If you are interested I will send you a text with all the information to contact him. He can set the record straight for you and anyone else who is willing to listen.
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shoot me his email. I have a few questions, especially if they're going for a trophy management plan for pike. Wouldn't a slot be beneficial in the 32-38 inch range and 1 over that size I guess? Cause I have a hard time imagining everyone hauling out as many pike in the mid 30's as a good recruitment tool for a lot of future 40-45 inchers swimming around, cause they aren't competing much for food at that size, with carp being so plentiful at least. Just thinking out loud here and I'm far from a biologist and I like asking these questions and getting answers from others on here who know a bit more! I'll post up whatever he emails me back.
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To add to what TD has said about Yuba, in addition to the predation by the carp and pike, Yuba's other big problem is lack of cover and stable water. Both these things have been rehashed here several times in the past.
Yuba is a typical Western Reservoir with fluctuating water levels and lack of cover. Yuba is pretty steril when it comes to cover. The majority of cover is in the upper end, up towards the Sevier River inlet. Unfortunately, as the water level is reduced as the demand for water down stream increases, that cover dries out and the perch, walleye and even the carp and northerns are left without anyplace to hide and everyone is fresh meat.
The state has no control over the water level. Yuba, as all other waters in the state, are controlled by the water users that own the water. They use that water for power generation, irrigation, culinary and municipal uses'. Fishing and recreation are WAY down the line as far as the priority is concened.
Yuba below Painted Rocks is basically a bowl, with little or no cover. As the water recedes and the upper reaches are dewatered, the fish retreat into the bowl and the feast is on. If you can swim faster than the mouth chasing you, you survive, unfortunately, there are to many mouths to evad. This is the same problem that exists at Powell with the shad and stripers.
I am not sure what is happening now, but I do know that DWR was looking at introducing aquatic vegetation to some waters, but again, you have to deal with unintended consequences when you do things like that. Also, will the carp prevent the establishment of rooted vegetation like they have at Utah Lake !!!
Several attempts have been made to introduce more cover into Yuba, but the public has thwarted those efforts. About 10-12 years ago, a project to plant Christmas trees was attempted. However some of the more contentious members of society decided that those trees would make a better bonfire that fish cover and they were burned on the ice. Water users decided that they did not want any more fires and ash on the ice so no more trees planted.
Yuba will always be a boom and bust water. DWR is doing all that it can, but we need to help by supporting their efforts. Sometimes the process is exaspterting, but that is the process !!
[quote utahgolf] I was always curious about the pike "crash" that some anglers say is coming. But I figured the pike in the upper 20's and 30 inch range were ok with carp as a steady replacement and a viable enough food source. These bumper crop of small pike in the teens seem like the most vulnerable that we'd see die off. .[/quote]
well.......not really.
As population size continues to increase, average size of fish will decrease. I hate to bring it up again (and again, and again, and again), but think of it like jelly beans in a jar. You can put a few big jelly beans in the jar, or lots of small jelly beans. If you want to add more and more jelly beans, you have to decrease the size of the jelly beans.
It's the same with fish populations. These non-native fish have no natural mechanisms to control their population size. So they just continue to to spawn, and spawn, and spawn. So, more fish are added to the system -- until the bucket is full. That's when you have your crash. However, the bucket can stay full for a long time. As the time goes on, the average size of fish will continue to get smaller, and smaller, and smaller.
So, your logic of having those larger pike remain, while the smaller pike suffer is backwards. The larger pike eventually disappear and all you have left are small pike -- a stunted system. Smaller than average size pike reaching sexual maturity and spawning.
Of course, you will always have those few that "buck the system". You will have those anomalies and have a few large fish. But, on average, everything will be small and people will complain about the lack of quality.
Right now, we have a lot of pike in the 30" range. That's great. How do we keep them there? By harvest. Everyone wants to "protect the big spawners". But it really doesn't matter at this point. Big or small, the pike are spawning and creating more. So harvest of all size ranges will help -- within the legal slot.
Further, the pike are in an optimum growth rate population right now too -- which is why you see good numbers of good sized (quality) pike. This is, again, further reasoning for the lack of a size restriction. It doesn't matter -- harvest both the big and the little. Those "big" pike that are harvested will VERY QUICKLY be replaced by another pike.
Anglers often times have a hard time understanding this -- which is why we need to listen more to our biologists. Those limits on the pike are there to help preserve the quality pike fishery that Yuba has become. Harvest away (again, within the legal limits) -- it is helping preserve the fishery!
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So you're saying that pike will basically spawn themselves into a crash, which I understand but don't pike have to have favorable conditions for spawning to be successful? and isn't the big pike boom a result of great spawning conditions a few years ago? They could go quite a few years with bad spawning conditions like it seems happens quite a bit and with carp in there like crazy I don't see them eating themselves outta food.
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[quote utahgolf]So you're saying that pike will basically spawn themselves into a crash,[/quote]
Yes. As long as they can spawn -- which it is VERY evident that they are -- then they will spawn. And spawn, and spawn, and spawn. They don't have a switch that says "ooops, there are too many of us. Turn off the spawn this year".
[quote utahgolf]...don't pike have to have favorable conditions for spawning to be successful? [/quote]
of course they do. And so far, Yuba has provided those conditions necessary for pike to spawn. As evident by the sudden popularity in Yuba pike fishing.
[quote utahgolf]and isn't the big pike boom a result of great spawning conditions a few years ago?[/quote]
Of course -- combined with extremely low numbers of walleye and perch. That was the whole race: which species (walleye vs. pike) will take advantage and establish first? Guess what? The pike won the race. Now, we have to figure out a way to keep their population numbers relatively controlled. Will they prey on carp? Certainly, they will prey on younger carp. However, carp grow fairly fast and many are able to escape that size range utilized by predators, and become too large for use as prey.
The question is not: will they eat themselves out of house and home. That is not what stunting is. Stunting is when fish reach sexual maturity (spawn) at a size smaller than what they should. Basically, you end up with a fishery full of smaller than desired fish. Lots of them. Like the Provo River with brown trout.
this isn't rocket science. Yuba, of all places, has plenty of history to back up the claims I'm describing. All you have to do is look at it's past. Sure, in the past it has been walleye, not pike. But it's the same concept. Boom, bust, boom, bust. Water will always be an issue. So, what is the next logical management tool to use? Harvest. harvest the hell out of those pike and keep their numbers in control. that, in turn, will keep a healthy population of pike in Yuba for longer than by protecting them. And, it will keep more big fish too. Maximum growth zone. That's what we want...
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so since the pike won the race that means they'll continue to have successful spawns each year? Yes, yuba PROVIDED good spawning conditions. But does that mean it will do so every year with the water table being so iffy? They had an awesome spawn a few years ago and things went boom but won't poor spawning conditions even that out? or does it not matter? and they'll spawn and have good recruitment each year? not disagreeing with you, just have lots of questions, I thought during low water, down years like we're having a couple now,, these pike will suffer and all these pike we see now are a result of a lucky spring year.
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I don't envy those in charge of managing an irrigation pond. These are all questions I'll pose to the biologist as well. I like the input and answers from you guys!
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I don't know if this will answer all your questions or not, but it is still some very good information for you to read through. See attached.
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This may also help to clarify what is happening at Yuba. Regarding Pike vs. Walleye. In some part it is a matter of when each species spawns. Pike, and yellow perch, are some of the earliest spawners around, actually beginning the spawn under the ice in some systems. Walleye don't begin till ice out and water temps get into the upper 40's, low 50's. All this means is that the young of the year ( YOY) pike get a 6-8 week head start on the YOY Walleye. That means they are ready to move from zooplankton diet to a fish diet, and guess who is on the menue, just hatched walleye !! Same with the perch, so YOY walleye have lots of mouths after them. Yearling carp are also in this mix as they are also preying on everyone that has just hatched. The advantage that the YOY pike have is tremendous over the other predators in the system. Those perch and walleye that survive the early season feast are still on the diet of the yearling and older pike, walleye, perch, and carp ( there are also channel cats in Yuba that also consume everyone ). So we have a lot of mouths to feed and they consume most of the YOY and alot of the surviving yearlings. As PBH described, you can have lots of small fish or a smaler number of big fish, it all depends on who survives and who makes it over the "dietary hump" !!!