Where do the hatchery fish come from?
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I think where we live the Native Tribes might carry some weight and there to. But, then again they might be getting tired of all the B.S.
It is not hard to get the Idaho fish to head down the rivers of Idaho. The problem always seems, to be them returning...
Idaho
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My friend who raises fish on billingsley creek gets his eggs from Montana. Makes me wonder just how screwed up the genetics have become to save a buck. Idaho has the infrastructure to hatchery raise native fish for stocking purposes, but do they? They plant hybrids. Sorry, as you can tell this topic pisses me off, and I don't fish for trout (on purpose).
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Someone once told me all dogs started from Wolves. Do I like wolves? Depends, on the dog I am looking for.
I hope Idaho keeps trying, for what we all believe in.
Fishing. Fast water. Hunting. Relaxing. Just being who you are.
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Idaho
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Fish wander. They go out to the ocean and come back with another group of fish to a different area all the time. I've caught fish around Salmon with tags from hatcheries up and down the coast of the Western U.S. There is no pure strain of fish.
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I agree, the fish do wander, and I may be wrong but I don't think that the genetics are going to be that different anywhere that the fish have access to the ocean. Obviously the group suing thinks they don't all return to the same place either otherwise there wouldn't be fin clipped fish spawning elsewhere.
I think that the burden of proof ought to be on the other foot. The group that is suing should have to show that there is damage. They should have to foot the bill for the studies in the first place. If the fish is vigorous enough to make it to the spawning grounds it doesn't have two heads. And it probably isn't genetically different than the local fish.
Really all the hatcheries would need to do use traps to take random wild fish each year for their stock. That way the genetics don't get too inbred.
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They plant hybrids because they are sterile and that in most situations gives them some advantages. Most of our streams are not stocked because there are already sufficient spawning fish there. The lakes, streams, and rivers that are stocked, are stocked with hybrids for many reasons.
One is that there is so much fishing pressure on that system that the natural spawning can't provide enough of a catch rate. This is especially true of small local ponds and streams for kids or near campgrounds.
Another reason is that there maybe native fish there that they want to protect, yet at the same time provide fish that can be caught and taken home. An example of that would be our restrictive catch and release rules on species such as bulls and cutts, yet if you catch a hatchery bow you can harvest it.
The next reason is to be able to control how many fish are in a system. With hybrids they can stock a certain number and not overload the system. Thereby providing more of a trophy fishery.
Next is that many of our reservoirs have no spawning areas available so they stock hybrids there for some of the same reasons. One again they can control the numbers and get a trophy fishery. Two if there is an over flow the hybrids pose no danger to the native fish in the system, and lastly they have found that the hybrids grow faster and survive longer because they don't put all of their energy into spawning. Again a better fish for the sportsmen.
Plus a lot of people like the rainbows for their fight and because it is fun to catch a variety of kinds. They wouldn't be able to stock rainbows at all in some areas because they would inbreed with the native cutts or displace other natives, except now they can because they are sterile. That same reason goes too for the sterile brookies that they plant in Henry's Lake.
I think and hope that we will see many more sterile fish planted in our reservoirs. I know that many places are experimenting and trying to get a reliable method to sterilize fish such as walleye so that they can be stocked without endangering natives or so that they can keep them at an optimal number.
To help the native fish is a slow and expensive process, but it IS going on. Many problems with the habitat of our streams have to be corrected. Lots of irrigation screens are being put in and fish ladders on diversions. Streambanks are being fenced to reduce livestock damage and allow vegetation to regrow. Without that shade and erosion repair, many streams are too warm and silty. Some non-native fish need to be removed or reduced in number. Then negotiations for water in the stream are being made. It all takes time, money, work, and lots of volunteers.
To just start planting "natives" would be a problem in itself. All natives are not the same. The Yellowstone cutthroats in one small system are genetically different from the Yellowstone cutthroats that maybe in another stream only two miles away. The best way is to repair the stream problems then allow the remaining native fish to repopulate that stream. To raise and stock those fish requires a separate facility that is just for those fish of that stream system.
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Over the last 5-6 years Ive been doing some reading on hatchery and wild steelhead and salmon. As many of you have pointed strays happen and in many places along the coast they account for this. There are 4 main reasons people blame for salmon and steelhead decling: Dams, Habitat, Hatcheries, and Harvest. Dams are the most politically difficult thing to accomplish, habitat is where the majority of money is spent, and hatcheries are used to restore native runs and provide fish for harvest. Many of these organizations that are pushing these lawsuits believe that hatchery fish are the reason for the decline in steelhead and salmon populations, in some places it could be and others its not. Although its good to have groups fighting for the fish, they are trying to end catch and keep fishing by eliminating hatchery fish in the system. When people can't fish, they lose interest when interest is lost the fish lose.
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I think you are correct.
I also think that this is the main agenda of many of these groups.... To get the fishermen off of the rivers.
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I believe your final assumption is correct. The fish won't long be protected and promoted if the fisherman isn't involved. They will never get rid of all the hatcheries and what percentage of hatchery fish stop along the way after straying from their originating point and spawn with a wild fish.
It's my opinion that the people trying to get rid of hatcheries are fooling themselves. Better management and the use of more wild breeding stock is the answer.
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I'm only concerned about the middle snake. When they built the dams, they also built hatcheries near 1000 springs. They milk the adults at Hells canyon, haul the eggs to 1000 springs, release the milked adults in the Boise river in town, then haul all the smolts back to hells canyon. The wild genetics are still there, but the middle snake has no dead bodies or smolts to feed the critters. Half the raceways are empty, then f&g plants hybrids from who knows for peeps to eat. Research lower salmon falls, upper salmon falls and fishing falls and their importance to the native people. Kamalops are Fun to catch, but where do they come from? The sturgeon are land locked and hungry. Need more nuclear power.
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Did you know that the redfish sockeye were killed off due to the dead rotting carcasses made a nasty smell and interfered with liberal camping trips?
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There are several reasons the redfish sockeye have declined. Yes they were killed to make the lake a trout fishery and smells, but enough fish survived to at least have genetics for the system. Then the dams came into play and are the leading killers. Really doesn't matter what caused them to decline, but what are we going to change so the increase. The thing I don't understand about various groups whether it be commercial or sports, catch and release or keep, native or hatchery. More fish are the goal so why fight between us when we want the same thing. No need for hatcheries when you have a million salmon coming back into Idaho. How do you get a million fish, well give them a chance. A lot of the money is being spent on habitat and that is great, but when one analyzes the Salmon River you ask yourself well much of the habitat is the best in Pacific NorthWest so why aren't there more fish. It is simple, dams! I am not saying tear down all of them, but the lower snake dams need to come down. The one thing that I fear is if we take those dams down and the Idaho fish rebound like they are expected then OR and WA will just increase there take just because they can. Much of the springer fishery on the Columbia is contributed to fish destined for Idaho. How about equality throughout the fishery. WA folks are fighting in their state right now about equality throughout the river system.
Although trout are huge hear, they can't be compared to salmon/steelhead management. Most of the salmon/steelhead came from the rivers they are put back into. Hatchery fish came from native fish. I like the idea of mixing natives and hatchery every year to keep updating the genetics.
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I think you'll find with a little research that there are pretty distinct genetic differences between wild strains of salmon even with natural straying rates. The strays add some genetic diversity but dont occur with enough frequency to really alter a specific basins genetics.
Theres debate on whether putting hachery fish into the system at the rates we do are the cause for what appears to be increased stray rates. Several on going studies on this topic.
Much of the columbia system was stocked with coastal strains as well as lots of CA fish. Why? bcause the eggs were easy to get.
Fish in hatcherys become domesticated very fast if wild genes are not infused into the linage on a regular basis. They may maintain sufficient diversity but theres no way to avoid artifical selection.
Redfish "sockeye" were extirpated within a few years of the sunbeam dam construction. To my knowledge, and its limited, no one knows where the current strain of fish came from. Anyone that has information on this I would love to see it.
Idahos contribution to the downriver fishery right now is running around 75%. i.e. around 75% of the fish being kept in the lower river are fish produced in ID. This is based on creel surveys (pitt tags).
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