Steelhead Numbers 16-17

[Steelie30]

I don't know if the numbers are only alarming to me, but are our Idaho Steelhead late? Or are we in trouble of having a poor run? I am hoping to see a spike in bonneville numbers here fairly quick, but it is making me a little nervous.
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[Biigfish33]

I saw an article that harvest of steelhead in the Columbia has been reduced to 1 fish because of worries that the snake river steelhead run could be half of the historical average. July 21, however, the Clearwater region update said that steelhead bound for Idaho were above the average. Hoping that the warmer temps have stalled the fish in the Columbia.
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[Steelie30]

That is what I saw as well. I am hoping the warm water is stalling them too. It's still early. We will hopefully have a better handle on it within the week.
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[Got_Bait]

Been looking pretty rough to me boys. Nothing that has happened so far (particularly what is happening now) could be construed as OK (let alone good), by any stretch of the imagination.
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[Steelie30]

I hear you. IF the numbers stay like they are now, they better think about dropping the limit of fish by 1 or even 2 on the Salmon River at least...Hopefully we see some kind of a spike soon.
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[Got_Bait]

Yep, we are gonna need big things to happen this month, because hoping for even 100,000 over Bonneville in September is an incredibly tall order. July and August are the big months at Bonne.
I love and appreciate Joe Dupont, but he is a salesman plain and simple. The word "sales" isn't in his job title, but they are gonna have to put it in there eventually. Steelhead and Salmon Permit Sales.
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[blacktop]

Good comments things are not exactly following the DuPont forcast of three weeks ago. Best thing that could ever happen would be a catch and release season on the Clearwater as the guides are out of control adding new boats and added pressure every year. Gone are the days of thirty years ago when there was only one guide boat on the river and it was a five thousand dollar set-up that was fifteen years old. Looking at the dart hydrograph comparing the ten year average it looks pretty alarming. Good comments on the salesman angle got-bait. We really need to cut down on the bag limits. Idaho Power is footing 99% of the bill for the salmon and steelhead not the fish and game.
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[Metalheadgene]

Disappointing to see the comments towards Joe. I have been reading his reports on and off for years and my view is his updates are genuine and based on the best information available at the time. I certainly have seen his forecasts be right far more often than not. Although I have not met Joe and would not be able to recognize him if he was standing in front of me I know folks who have and speak highly of his character.

I found the comments about the Clearwater to be interesting as well. I recall being on the Clearwater almost 30 years ago , with a boat every 20 yards as far as the eye can see up and down the river, plenty of them being guide buts but lots of sporties as well.

I do agree there needs to be rule changes to add protections to the fish but not negatively targeting guide operations because of all the families and businesses that rely on that income.
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[Biigfish33]

I agree with you about Joe, I don't think you can make a point that his comments from 2.5 weeks ago were aligned with being a salesman; at that time things weren't looking bad, the lower granite numbers were above the five year average and the bonneville numbers hadn't stalled yet. Obviously fish and game wants to sell licenses and tags, but I don't think at this point we can say they're being greedy salesman. I would assume that if the run is indeed well below average there will be reductions in limits, etc.

I agree with you about not negatively targeting guides, the economic impact salmon and steelhead have in the towns where these fish run is huge for those communities. These guys already have issues dealing with fluctuating runs each year and not knowing how they will make their next dollar. Of course, at least in my opinion, we wouldn't be having a similar conversation every year or every third year, etc., if there weren't so many obstacles facing these fish.

To that point, I think idaho power and bonneville power should be covering most of the cost, it isn't fish and games' sole responsibility to be paying for restoration that otherwise wouldn't be needed if many of the dams weren't in place. Instead of criticizing fish and game, we should be supporting them in anyway we can. Of course they want to sell licenses and tags, but how else are they going to fund projects to improve opportunities in Idaho?
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[blacktop]

I do not have a problem with Joe Dupont as he is a nice guy and does a really good job. When I started fishing around Orifino in the fall of 1984 and subsequent spring there was only one guide on the river and he was fishing a boat that was 15 years old. There were a lot of boats with a huge proportion of them being 12 to 16 footers mostly props. It stayed that way for a decade but now there as many as 15 guide boats in a five mile area some days and most of the services have tripled their boats in the last ten years. I and others on the bank have been yelled at when we start fishing from the bank nearly a half mile below drift boats running divers and schrimp. Putting in at the bar at pink house there are six or seven boats lined up waiting for clients. Some boats have eight or nine people on board with two people tying rigs and baiting up the customers. Most of these boats are very expensive some running as much as a couple hundred thousand dollars. Most regular people cannot afford the 200 dollar plus tip daily guide fee's for the power boats. A very high % of the clients are there because of business or customer related tax write offs in scores of different industries and commercial ventures. These people are not buying much fishing gear and are no more valuable to the towns economically than the scores of boats that used to fish it back in the day. When is the escalation of the continually added commercial boats going to stop? Back in the day around north fork on the salmon only so many guides were allowed in a designated area and we need to find a way to get back to that on the Clearwater. I had some of my best fishing on the Clearwater a couple years ago when keeping fish was prohibited for most of the fall and spring and look forward to a poor run to scale back quides. My personel information is available with a click on these boards and as one who has fished the Clearwater as much as nearly anyone the past thirty two years I am to see the continued three of four guide boats a year added to this thirty mile river.
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[Got_Bait]

Cry me a river people! Did I not say that I love and appreciate Joe? He goes to great lengths to answer every question he receives and keep everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) informed. I can't imagine what his inbox looks like for those 4-5 months, and I have never had him not respond to one of my inquiries. But let's not kid ourselves here OK? Do you really believe that if he has to choose between being brutally honest, and unrealistic positive spin, that he's going to choose the former? I am not saying he's a bad person for it, I am just saying "I see what you did there." I've watched these numbers for a long time though...

I never said a single word against F&G either. They have provided me with opportunities to catch salmon every single year since I made my first trip in 2000 and steelhead every single year since my first trip in 1996. Do I agree with every single one of their practices? No. But agreeing with every move they make isn't a prerequisite for appreciation. They have to balance our satisfaction against the costs of operation, and I understand that.

Also, did I ever use the word greedy? Did I say that sales was not an honorable profession? It's actually what I do for a living folks. It's in MY job title. So maybe I am the one who should be offended here, haha. []

And 1 last request please: spare me the rhetoric about guides boosting the economy. If you ask me, they are the root of all evil. Who would really want to take something that they love and turn it into a job that their wives and children are depending on? "Here, lets take a finite, limited resource that normal people are doing for relaxation, recreation and enjoyment, and exploit the dog crap out of it." It's not some unlimited resource that we can just limit out boatload after boatload of people every single day, and then expect that there will be plenty left for Joe America when he gets a day off to do what he loves. No sympathy here. Get a real job I say.

I never planned on getting into a whole deal here, but I guess that's what forums are for huh?
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[Got_Bait]

blacktop,

Great comments and perspective on the guides. You have been around long enough, and spent enough time on the water to see the progression, and I agree with you 100%.

I've only been fishing the Clearwater since Fall 1997, and I have observed the same trend just since then.
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[Biigfish33]

My comments about joe were more geared to the fact that I don't think if things were dire, that Joe and F&G as a whole would create too big of a spin as to affect the future of the runs. I am sure if things turn out as bad as they look limits will be reduced, etc. Like I said, of course they want to sell tags/licenses, and I agree with your point that a positive spin is more likely to be used than a gloomy report. My point was that his comments were from 3 weeks ago when things were early, and he was just stating facts and not trying to be a salesman.

What I said in terms of fish and game wasn't geared towards any person, and I agree with what you said. I think someone mentioned that F&G doesn't pay the bill for much of the salmon and steelhead recovery efforts and that the power companies do. I was simply saying I think it's pretty fair that the power companies pay. Obviously we don't all need to agree with F&G decisions, I don't in a number of areas, but some posts I've read and people I've talked to seem to be more pessimistic than others; my opinion is that we should support them and give input as much as possible. Also, if I said greedy, it wasn't geared towards you either ha! I think I was just using that as a general thought! []

As far as guides go, I'm not as well versed as you and blacktop on the Clearwater fishery, so I won't pretend to be. The guides I encounter on the upper salmon, which I will admit isn't a saturated market, have always been very friendly and never have been overbearing. They also buy gear locally (because they're local guides). I agree with you completely on your comments about guides exploiting resources, and obviously things need to be managed. My comments about the guides helping the economy had less to do with the money they make than the people they bring, who then spend money in the small towns and places near the fisheries. Again, maybe I am a bit naive with my experience on the upper salmon. I suppose you can't lump river systems into one category, and the Clearwater fishery is definitely a lucrative and special place that needs to be managed better if it is indeed as bad as you make it out to be. I will say that guiding as a profession can be a great opportunity to get new faces into the outdoors and teach people to appreciate the resource if it is done correctly. I think on this topic we have seen separate ends of the spectrum, so I don't see all the negatives you speak of.

Didn't mean to seem like I was goin after your comments, I think we agree on most things you've stated. At the end of the day, I think we all just want to see a few more fish moving up the river, and for everyone to have an opportunity to enjoy an amazing resource!
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[Biigfish33]

Just to clarify further, the comment about the guides, fluctuating runs, and making their next dollar was coming from my experience in the upper river. Most of guides I know or encounter live in the towns close to the river and are supporting the area they grew up in or live in currently. Some of them guide because they want to live in the area and there really isn't a ton of other opportunity, some of them do it because that's their passion and they enjoy sharing it with others, etc. I don't think these guys are exploiting a resource and trying to capitalize on it completely. I think there's a fine line, and from what it sounds like, it's been crossed on the Clearwater.
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[Got_Bait]

No worries Biigfish. Thanks for clarifying.
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[Steelie30]

Yikes.....its not looking too good. Where are our A run fish? I know they say we are going to see 90% 2 year fish but that number would be high if the A runners are either not coming at all or staying in the ocean one more year. Our spring water has been high when those fish are released. It has to be a dam or ocean issue. Limits better drop unless we see some huge improvements.
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[Got_Bait]

Yep it's for real bud. Those %s can be deceiving. You hear 90% B run (2+ ocean) and you think "oh boy". But then when you look at the raw numbers of B runs compared to other years, its actually less than we have seen in previous years. It's the lack of the (usually abundant) A runs that is driving up the B run %, like you say.

I've already accepted the fact that we are looking at a down year, and I am okay with it. The way I see it, I would rather set my sights low, and be pleasantly surprised, than to get my hopes up, and have my dreams shattered.

We'll still manage to catch some. Honestly, we have been spoiled with these monster #s since 2000. When I started in the 90s, we were working with 30-50% of the fish that we have seen in recent years, and still had excellent fishing at times. Makes you appreciate the big runs more.

Hard to say why this could be happening, as there are so many factors. This is part of the nature of the dams we built. We are at the mercy of mother nature when it comes to our run sizes. We are bound to have good years and bad.

Statistically speaking, we release the same amount of fish every year, but even subtle changes in weather patterns drastically affects migrating and ocean conditions, which can (and do) cause huge variation in adult returns.
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[ineedtofish]

Guides are out of hand on the Clearwater. You can count 10-15 guide boats on the river during low water steelhead season, and 20-30 during salmon season. With some of their boats fishing 6-8 guys, it is out of control.
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[Steelie30]

I couldn't agree with you more.

Good or bad numbers, I will still probably be on the water the same. I have had some really good days in less than stellar conditions. I have had horrible days in great conditions. Steelhead are Steelhead and whenever you think you have them figured out they throw you a curve ball.

The only way to catch fish is to have a line in the water. Maybe we will see some good numbers these next few days (2500 the last two which isn't bad). I'm still excited for them to make their way here this fall. There is nothing like a fall native 2-3 year fish. I'd rather catch one of them than 5 hatchery A run fish anyway=).
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[Biigfish33]

I hear you guys loud and clear. Like I said, I'm not familiar enough with that system to know. Have you or others made that statement to F&G? Sounds like it needs to be addressed!
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