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Utah Perchology
#21
(12-06-2020, 05:05 AM)Anglinarcher Wrote:
(12-05-2020, 04:31 AM)Fisheneer Wrote: Just brain storming.


TubeDude, what is your thoughts on this?

Obviously this does not preclude limit changes, seasons, etc., etc., but if anything is to change, we need to be
"Just brain storming."
I believe there was a "Friends of Willard Bay" established a few years ago.  Not sure whether it died from lack of interest or inability to get anything done "through channels".   As I recall, there were several great plans for improving Willard...including the addition of structure.  Several BFTers were involved.  Maybe one of them will chime in with the real story.  I know some of the original spearheads have "passed on".

You made a good point...about the state picking and choosing where they spend the money...regardless of for what it may have originally been targeted.  Unless a separate non-governmental entity or agency is properly formed to collect private funds and administer a specific program it is highly unlikely that program would ever happen.
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#22
(12-06-2020, 05:05 AM)Anglinarcher Wrote: First, lets look at how Money is "managed" in Utah.  Like most states, we have a general fund that every dime is put into.
That simply isn't true.  There are many fund catagories in Utah other than the "General Fund" and legislation is passed every year that species into which fund collected revenues will be placed.  The three main funds are General, Education, & Transportation.  I would guess that in order to have a donation ear-marked for a specific fund that the donor would have to contact the Utah OMB office for specifics on how to do that - if possible at all.  I'm in favor of such donations and am not trying to be negative here, but the myth that we only have the 'General Fund' for all money collected just isn't the case.  The Utah budget process and funding is way more complex than that.

Here is a link to a PDF document that shows a very general structure of funds collection and distribution in Utah:

  https://le.utah.gov/interim/2012/pdf/00002067.pdf
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 81 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
"Free men do not ask permission to bear arms."
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#23
OK Bob, your point is taken, but the three you give hardly cover the vast majority of "charitable" causes.  In fact, other than splitting hairs, you almost made my point for me.

Still, I for one am open to suggestions.  How would you propose funding and helping Willard?
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#24
(12-07-2020, 01:39 AM)Anglinarcher Wrote: OK Bob, your point is taken, but the three you give hardly cover the vast majority of "charitable" causes.  I never meant that the 3 I mentioned would cover any charitable causes.  They are just what I said - the three largest/main funds.  There are perhaps a dozen or 2 funds that cover a very wide area of needed expenditures.

In fact, other than splitting hairs, you almost made my point for me.


Still, I for one am open to suggestions.  How would you propose funding and helping Willard? 
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 81 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
"Free men do not ask permission to bear arms."
Reply
#25
(12-06-2020, 05:05 AM)Anglinarcher Wrote:
(12-05-2020, 04:31 AM)Fisheneer Wrote: Just brain storming.  But, experience has shown me that when funds can be generated, the DWR guys are FANTASTIC at knowing how to put them to the most productive use.  We need to recognize that the revenues in Utah that go to Legislature don’t necessarily get back to where we intended. We also need to recognize that the funds that they do are spread extremely thin.  Additionally, the ability to focus on a single body of water in any year is very difficult. 

Having worked on the Willard Day Pond that is currently under construction that the artificial habitat has some great benefits, but so does some of the more natural habitat such as the sunken trees.  In short, There are some key issues to consider.  For a large water body, creating enough structure, can take years.  As a result, whatever the plan is, it will require a long term plan and goal.  

It also helps to recognize that the water bodies themselves are not owned by the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources or Utah State Parks.  Willard Bay for instance is a U.S.  Bureau of Reclamation Project managed by the Weber Basin Water Conservancy District.  So, the best approach to doing habitat in Willard Bay would be to identify a way to do habitat enhancement that would allow the Water Conservancy District to also get some water conservation or water quality or other environmental credits in the process to offset some other issues they may be having.  By creating the synergistic relationship with the managing entities of the water bodies, it opens the doors to accomplishing wonderful things.

In most cases, if not all, the Division of Wildlife Resources has already done a pretty good job doing this initial ground work, which is why we DO NOT want to muddy up those efforts.  It would make a huge mess.  However, if we could come up with a way to purchase the “structure” rather artificial or natural and work out a way to get it installed, and work with the DWR to get the permitting, then provide it to them as a “non cash” contribution, but a hard contribution “in-place”, it could probably work.  

I know that sometimes the simplest things make great habitat.  For instance on a small stream or river it may be willow and dogwood plantings, cottonwoods and other native trees and shrubs, removing non-native vegetation, using boulders and rocks to create a riffle/pool system from a sterile uniform channel.  The key is to work with those who know what  will work in an given situation, and then identify ways to implement it.  Often the simple things can create cover for insects and prey species, which also support the predators and provide them cover.   The problem is if it is limited or too focused, it also focuses the fisherman on the predators and the prey species.

That is the reason I got thinking the other night.  Utah has a way/knack of figuring out ways to pull together and accomplish some really cool things.  I have worked on river restoration projects where volunteer labor has harvested and planted thousands of coyote and yellow willows that are now establishing extremely well.  Ironically, was known for a lot of skinny browns averaging 8-10 inches long.  Now, the last creel studies I was part of (Anglinarcher, you were there as I recall), okay it was our creel last February, the averaging 14-16 inches and some up to 18 inches.  Chris and crew gave a lot of input on that and it worked.  That is on the Logan River.  They have also been able to do a lot on the Provo and others. 

The problem on lakes and reservoirs is the habitat isn’t really restoration or critical for a specific threatened species.  But with the increase in fishing pressure, it seems that increased cover would more then benefit perch.  It will benefit the entire food chain.

I am a Civil and Environmental Engineer.  I am not a biologist.  I am not a wildlife resource expert.  But these are my thoughts and I really would like to get people thinking.  I would like to see if we, starting with BFT, can put our heads together and come up with some ideas that can start solving the structure and habitat issues in our reservoirs.  That seems to be one of the key issues for managing any of the non-native sport fish.
I like your thoughts, but have experienced a few things in the past that concern me. 

First, lets look at how Money is "managed" in Utah.  Like most states, we have a general fund that every dime is put into.  It does not matter if we donate to the state to for extra structure in Willard, or for extra computers for the schools.  In the end, the legislators make the budgets and they spread it to their favorite causes.  HINT, most legislators don't fish, don't care about Willard, and it appears have limited intentions for schools as well.

A case in point is Idaho.  Their system is about the same as ours.  When they wanted a lottery, the promise was that it would fund the schools.  Truth is that with their existing funding and their lottery cut they would be building schools on every street corner, paving they playgrounds in gold, hiring only the top professors as teachers.  Fact is stranger than though, the fact is that the legislators got the lottery money, and the tax money, and the schools got the same or reduced budgets that they always got (yep, got shafted).  When was the last time you heard of the rich Idaho Schools?  Ya, me neither.

For this to work, we would need to establish a "Friends of Willard" Non-Profit, or a Not-for Profit.  As an independent company, they could "coordinate" with Chris or his equivalent to plan on structure improvements, but the legislature could not tough the funding.  Then Chris, or his ..... could get the permits, do the biology as necessary, and work on any regulatory issues.  Perhaps, with enough arm twisting from the Non-Profit matching state and federal funds might be available.

Once the plans were established, fund raising goals could be established, funds could be raised.  Chris would then step in and coordinate with the non-profit for labor and the structure that was pledged and collected........

Well, you get the idea.  I am not writing a charter here, not the legal mind, but TU and other conversation groups have been doing this to some point, with great success.


Fisheneer, any experience with this?

TubeDude, what is your thoughts on this?

Obviously this does not preclude limit changes, seasons, etc., etc., but if anything is to change, we need to be
"Just brain storming."
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#26
[quote pid='1108428' dateline='1607309435']
[quote pid='1108369' dateline='1607231133']
(12-05-2020, 04:31 AM)Fisheneer Wrote: ........That is the reason I got thinking the other night.  Utah has a way/knack of figuring out ways to pull together and accomplish some really cool things.  I have worked on river restoration projects where volunteer labor has harvested and planted thousands of coyote and yellow willows that are now establishing extremely well.  Ironically, was known for a lot of skinny browns averaging 8-10 inches long.  Now, the last creel studies I was part of (Anglinarcher, you were there as I recall), okay it was our creel last February, the averaging 14-16 inches and some up to 18 inches.  Chris and crew gave a lot of input on that and it worked.  That is on the Logan River.  They have also been able to do a lot on the Provo and others. 

The problem on lakes and reservoirs is the habitat isn’t really restoration or critical for a specific threatened species.  But with the increase in fishing pressure, it seems that increased cover would more then benefit perch.  It will benefit the entire food chain.

[/quote]

[/quote]
Fisheneer, I think we need to do another creel study on that reclamation location again.  LOL

On Toledo Bend Reservoir on the Louisiana-Texas Border, they have fish "cribs", often 30'+ foot tall stacked pallets just stacked and tied together and sunk to strategic locations in the lake.  Now, for those that have never been there, they have standing oak and long needle pine trees in that lake everywhere, so much they have cut boat lanes for travel, and yet Texas and Louisiana still saw the need for additional prey protection.  On that Reservoir, you had better have a spare prop and skills changing it over deep water.  uggggg    Vertical cover like a million oak trees that were not cut down before the Reservoir flooded were not as effective as horizontal cover.  PS, Toledo Bend is considered one of the top Bass lakes in the world.  Crappie over 14" are common..........

I totally agree that we don't want to step on Chris or the DWR's toes at all.  I don't think that we could ever replace the biology or management skills they have already got in place.

But, wouldn't it be nice to team up, provide labor and hard goods.  Perhaps this could be a great University study????????


Still Brain Storming
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