Fishing Forum

[cool][#0000ff]This is a good topic. No reason to not continue further discussion. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Just for the record, I do not keep all the fish I catch. And, I usually just try to either shake them off without touching them or else I twist the hook out without handling the fish.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I do carry lip grippers and use them on larger fish with teeth, if I need to control them during the release process.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Sorry Jim. I am interested in your outlook on holding big macks during the photo process.[/#0000ff]
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Lots of people ask me how to prevent scars after I've sewn them up, and the only answer to that question is to not get cut. Once you cut the skin, there will be some form of scar formation, so I guess the only perfect way to release a fish is to never catch them! I've seen people bleed like stuck pigs from a small 22ga needle stick, where larger incisions in the skin only ooze. All you have to do is hit a small artery and you will bleed quite a bit quite quickly. These small vessels will eventually clot off, but they make a mess in a hurry. Same goes with sticking a hook in a fishes mouth. Sometimes they don't bleed much, and others look like you've sliced the jugular! Most will do just fine, the bleeding will stop, and they'll live to fight another day. So don't judge how a fish is handled because you see some blood coming from the fish. Heck I've seen fish nearly having their guts ripped out because someone was trying to save a cheap powerbait laden treble hook. They don't bleed much, but pretty much have a death sentence. So for those of you who like to stir the pot, and never contribute anything worth while, shut the @$*& up and crawl back under the rocks from whence you came, we don't need you here.

As for releasing fish, I like Pat will try to dehook them in the water without touching them at all. If I have to touch them, I handle them as little as possible, then get them back into the water as soon as possible.

Oh yeah, I'd pay money to see you break the neck of a fish by using a lip gripper on the jaw. The jaw will break off long before you injure the spine. The spine is an incredibly tough structure and takes a tremendous force to cause major injury.
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Personally I'm pretty well done posting pictures. I try and be as careful as I can because I release every thing I catch. But sometimes in the heat of the moment and the hurry to get a picture and release the fish as soon as possible I probably don't hold them politically correct. [unsure] Oh well at least I do release and gently hold them by the tail until they swim off under there own power. I'm sure some don't survive. This does bum me out. I always get PMs about how I hold fish and am trying to do it differently. Smaller fish 5 lbs or less I usually use lip grippers expecially to get the hook out. I've had a hook in my hand before and it sucks. The larger fish do need to be delt with differently and more gentle so there neck don't break. Well just my 2 cents worth.

Bodine
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In the "previous" post I described the net I use that allows for quick and easy C&R. That brand apparently isn't being made any more, but these two nets by William Joseph are almost identical in design and can be purchased at fly shops. I have seen other brands of similar design as well.


[url "http://www.flyfishusa.com/nets/william-joseph-net.htm"]http://www.flyfishusa.com/nets/william-joseph-net.htm[/url]
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My experience with those particular nets are they are great for landing fish with flies or other small single hooks; however, unless you want to quit fishing for several minutes to get your hooks out of the net after landing every fish, never use them with a lure that has more than one hook on them. I prefer the rubber nets; however, one problem with them is that they are heavy to handle even without a fish in them. As most of you know, I often use a lip gripper; however, if they aren't carefully used they can poke a large hole under the jaw or worse. Angling was simpler when I was a kid growing up. Except for a few years that requried trout to be over 7 inches long before they could be kept, it was legal to keep all fish caught up to one's limit, and in my family we kept our limits. All fish kept were eaten by us or our neighbors. More complicated these days with all of the slot limits and also with me keeping few fish.
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[cool][#0000ff]Good comments. Not all fish that bleed will die...and some that don't bleed WILL die. Just give them the best possible shot by careful handling.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]This fine specimen of a toothless golden walleye appears to have been handled a bit roughly in the landing process. And, letting the fish lay on the dry ground will certainly be detrimental to the slime coating. The amount of visible blood suggests that the fish might not survive, even if given proper resuscitation techniques.[/#0000ff]
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That would require a very strong wrist to land a 30# mac with that net.[]
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TD: Just out of mild mannered curiosity why would you post the picture of the carp? Why would you give the other side the ammunition to bolster their position that we are all barbarians. Now if you wanted to show me this picture while we were out fishing or at home no big deal but to post it on the web is fairly foolish. I'm not a left wing liberal by no means but I have the intelligence to know what makes us all look bad. This is what gives all outdoors man a black eye. I'm not saying killing the carp was a bad decision but posting it the way you did was.
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[cool][#0000ff][size 1]You said [/size][black][size 3]"[/size][/black][/#0000ff][black][size 3]Less slime removal from the rubber netting versus nylon or cotton."
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[#0000ff][#0000ff][size 1]Not attacking you, but I find it interesting (not funny) that comment comes from someone who always poses clients holding big fish against their dry clothing. I'm sure that does not do much for the slime coating of those fish either.[/size][/#0000ff][/#0000ff]
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[black]Tubedude: I couldn't agree more. Holding fish against dry clothing for photos does remove protective slime. But even worse, and I see it on many many fish, is the slime that is removed from fish in my own and others' nets. I don't have (and can't seem to find) a large enough rubber net to hold a 30 pound laker, much less a couple of them when we double-up. We catch fish regularly that have "net marks' on them from past nettings, so they're living, but the marks are clearly visible.[/black]

Having said that, I've seen no evidence and have no reason to believe today, that our fish handling of the large macks at the Gorge, is having a measurable effect on our mortality rate. At least not the way I assist and instruct everyone in my boat to do it. Those big lakers have a lot of slime, and although much of one side of the fish often touches clothing, I don't believe it's increasing mortality. I'm sure I lose more to line cuts during the fight. And again, I see more slime come off the fish when its moving in my nylon net than I do when I lift a fish into the arms of a customer. I do believe the net does the most "damage."

If I had my way, not one of my customers would ever hold one fish out of the water for a photo. In that case, we'd never net a fish either. My dream is to someday guide on the Gorge and not even have a net on my boat. No net, no fish removal from the water. Just get 'em up, take a look, maybe a quick snap-shot in the water, pop the hook out, and send them on their way. And at the same time, throw the scale overboard too. I lift my net, with the fish in it, to weigh the fish. Everybody wants to know, "What does that one weigh? Is it over 30?!!" Honestly, I don't care these days, but the paying customer does, so I weight most of them in the net.

Last year I began releasing tarpon in Florida without handling. We now don't remove them from the water. Just bring 'em up, get a couple of stern-side photos, remove the hook, and give them a little push away. No scale, no tape, no fish-out-of-water photo. My customers that fish with me in Florida, however, are, lets just say, "more advanced." They don't need a picture to make their trip complete. And this summer, that became law in Florida. "Harvest" means to remove from the water. I can't wait for that same attitude on the Gorge someday. I don't like extra laws, but it's a good one in my opinion. Many Florida guides have been doing this for a decade or more, and I finally learned it was "OK" from them! (Some even on the Florida BFT Forum!!!)

Unfortunately, this is not likely in this part of the country in the foreseeable future. Most of my customers would not even go mack fishing, even if it were free, if they couldn't go home with a picture of themselves holding "the big one" that they caught. Admittedly, they do make for good memories, but I hear all kinds of crap like "I need it to show my wife so she knows I was really fishing," and "I gotta show my buddy or he/she won't believe me." To that, I say "who cares if anyone believes you or not?" I hope that's not why most people fish, to impress their friends.

All but a few customers insist on pictures though, and I have bills to pay, so we click away. Some just photograph a fish here and there, but those are mostly folks who already have an album full! I post them on my website because the fish are out of the water anyway. Might as well if the fish is already out. I did guide successfully for 20 years without a website with pictures pasted all over it, so its not necessary for me to market my services. Its just to make the customer happy, and that needs to change, even if it's having little effect on mortality. And I created my own monster with that "recent catches" page on my site. I have customers every month say, "I just want to be on your website!" I should be setting the example, and am seriously considering making that page go away.

If anyone knows where I can find a deep, 36" rubber net, the Mastercard is ready!!! That would be the next step for me. BLM graciously bought me a $150 square-bottom Beckman earlier this year that is the best I've used so far, but its still nylon and scratchy. (I do love that net BLM!)

Hopefully there will come a time when anglers don't need a photo of themselves holding their "trophy" catch to be fulfilled or feel a sense of accomplishment. Until then, we can all do the best we can, and continue to refine our fish handling techniques with the fish's best interest in mind.

I've been thinking about this more and more with each passing season. I've considered offering a discount to anglers who agree to never remove a fish from the water. I have no idea how that would be received. I've also considered building some kind of rectangular "net" or "box" or cradle in which the fish could be transferred to, in the water, for a scale photo. It would have a tape measure clearly visible. Perhaps the time has come.

Now I know I'm opening myself up here, but how about taking a giant step and saying, lets all just stop taking pictures of large fish that are going to be released? Not all fish, just those that need our protection. This won't fly with many, if not most, but it has to start somewhere. Remember when "catch and release" sounded like the dumbest idea on the planet? There was a time, when I was very young. Maybe its time for another dumb idea (limit photos) to start taking baby steps toward reality.

This ended up long, but I think its one of the most important issues facing fishermen now and in the future. There are more of us fishing the waters, with more knowledge and technology, and we're not gaining any more water or fish to my knowledge. And, its something we, as fishermen, CAN do something about without the need for crooked politicians or ignorant fish managers. It's in OUR hands! (and so are the gills and the slime!)
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[cool][#0000ff]I am proud to be a barbarian. I have no false illusions about myself and I do not take myself so seriously that I worry about what "the other side" might think. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]What is this "other side", anyway? And why should we worry about them? If you are referring to the tree huggers and the PETA-ites, they are an aggravation but they have no real power. If they are so tough why aren't they out hassling Hells Angels in their leathers?[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I posted it mostly for the benefit of TKB. I know him to be a great fan of the toothless golden walleye. And, I have seen him exacting his own terrible toll upon them. I know he has been chained to his new home and has been unable to break free for a carpfest...or any kind of fishing...so I thought I would try to cheer him up.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Sorry if my morbid photography upsets you. I am personally more upset by the news and pictures we see daily from the senselessness in Iraq and Afghanistan. We all set our own priorities.[/#0000ff]
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[cool][#0000ff]Great response. Having worked with the paying public, both in retail and on fishing boats, I sympathize with your plight. You are always in the middle between the need to generate an income and the desire to protect your resources...the fish. The fishing public tends to think that once they have contracted your services and paid your fee that they own your soul and can dictate ALL the rules. And, they can sometimes be SO unreasonable. You probably ask yourself at times..."Is it really worth the hassle?"[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Your observations on the netmarks clearly visible on repeat catches would lend credibility to the toughness of at least some macks. I suspect that larger fish are not quite as susceptible to some of the skin ailments of the younger fish. Still, it is desirable to avoid damaging them if at all possible.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I have not had any particular need or motivation to research large nets, so I have no suggestions in that area. You mentioned that you had considered cradle nets. I know that a lot of muskie and big pike anglers favor those, for controlling and handling these large fish...and they are known for being wimpy and tough to handle without mortality. It would seem that if you could purchase or make a cradle net with the rubber mesh it would be a partial solution.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Good luck with the "reeducation" program...convincing hard core fishermen that they do not need pictures of their big fish. It is tough enough to get them to settle for pictures of LIVE fish, and then releasing the fish. The "average" angler wants both the pictures and the carcasses of the dead fish to show off to the goobers back home. Never mind that the fish has lived several decades and will take as long to replace in the system. As long as they get theirs, they don't care about the next guy...or the next generation.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I have an idea. How about pushing the angler into the water to swim alongside his trophy while you get video? You may need more than a lip gripper to get the spluttering client back into the boat.[/#0000ff]
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I like most of what you said, here is the name of the nets you are looking for (StowMaster) nets are the biggest nets and are rubber coated and strong I don't know the IP address but they are good...


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Now I know I'm opening myself up here, but how about taking a giant step and saying, lets all just stop taking pictures of large fish that are going to be released? Not all fish, just those that need our protection. This won't fly with many, if not most, but it has to start somewhere. Remember when "catch and release" sounded like the dumbest idea on the planet? There was a time, when I was very young. Maybe its time for another dumb idea (limit photos) to start taking baby steps toward reality.

This ended up long, but I think its one of the most important issues facing fishermen now and in the future. There are more of us fishing the waters, with more knowledge and technology, and we're not gaining any more water or fish to my knowledge. And, its something we, as fishermen, CAN do something about without the need for crooked politicians or ignorant fish managers. It's in OUR hands! (and so are the gills and the slime!) [/reply]
First thing first is that I agree, but anglers need to practice selective harvest before this next step is taken. For those that want to bring home a fish for a good eat great, but if the body of water had very few fish of that size and could have benefited from just a catch and release, then it should have been released. I believe it's all about education, when an angler cares about what he/she is doing then he/she will educate themselves to do what they may personally believe to be for the better and that decision ought to be respected. This applies to C&R of fish as well as handling of such. Everybody was taught differently so there are many personal standards as to how things should be done properly, (according to whoever). This is just my 0.02$ so take it or leave it!
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I can not see any thing but a good laugh from the picture TD has posted of the fish...

Like we have all seen on here some like it some don't, the ones that don't good the ones that do good peta and all of those type can go some place else or like what happen when they wanted on my land I told them to go ---- well you fell in the blanks....[sly][]


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Don't stop posting pictures, if some one don't like them to bad...

Each person has there own way of holding fish like bass they are the easiest ones, to me trout are harder to hold (and get a picture) and how to hold them for the picture and not hurt them is what this is all about....

We all know the best way of all to keep the fish alive is not to fish at all, for me sorry I will fish [], but some of the fish we want to get the pictures of ...

So how do we do that in the best way???
How do we hold the types of fish and be in the pictures???

No bickering on who is right or wrong what is your way????


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Bassrods: I've looked at the Stowmasters, but the larger hoops (30 inch and up) still have nylon netting, like my Beckman. As with all the other manufacturers I'v asked, only the smaller nets have rubber. I have a 24-inch rubber one, but the biger macks don't even come close to fitting. I know some guys in the Keys who have carried smaller ones on their skiffs for bonefish, redfish, and such, and they weren't too thrilled with their durability, even the saltwater model.

Thanks for the heads up though. I may have to buy a sheet of rubber netting or something and make my own. I have the hoops and handles, I just need a deep rubber net to thread through the hoop.
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[font "Tempus Sans ITC"][#808000][size 3]Stop letting your customers catch the Awesome doubles and you could get a smaller net.[] Just kidding. LMAO[/size][/#808000][/font]
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Well I hoped it would helped you out I have one for bass and walleye I have not looked at the bigger ones....


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I believe it's all about education, when an angler cares about what he/she is doing then he/she will educate themselves to do what they may personally believe to be for the better and that decision ought to be respected. This applies to C&R of fish as well as handling of such. Everybody was taught differently so there are many personal standards as to how things should be done properly, (according to whoever). This is just my 0.02$ so take it or leave it! [/reply]
I couldnt agree anymore!![] I have been seeing this guy with his 4 kids catching largies keeping the bigger ones then throwing the smaller ones 5 feet away from shore like thats going to help them swim away faster![mad] Now he is basically teaching his kids that its ok to do then they will do the same thing.Bad fishing habits are passed from uneducated fisher people( being politically correct) from generation to generation. I have taught my kids to keep what you can eat and be as careful as you can releasing fish .I tey and keep them in the water unless they are going in the frying pan. There is always going to be those who dont care about the future of fishing. There should be more education in our state parks for those who dont know any better this is just my 1 1/2 ccents worth.
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You give a whole new meaning to fish "Fry". Hot rocks could be detrimental to the species. Oh well[cool]
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