Fins?

[trollboy8]

I went to a dive shop last night, brought my waders and tried a few things out. Now I have more questions if anyone wants to weigh-in.

1. I have a pair of hodgeman flats wading boots (neoprene--scuba booty-type boots). I bought them to use during my annual trip to Mexico for flats fishing and did not intend to use them with waders but figured that they could serve double duty; however, they seem to be too small to use with waders--mostly because the stocking foot on the waders seem to be too bulky (supposed to fit a size 8-11 or something like that). Anyway, is it completely necessary to wear boots with fins or could I get away with just wearing the fins directly on my waders? I am worried that that my prematurely wear-out the stocking feet on my waders. Anyone ever try just wearing your regular wading boots (felt sole, hiking boot-looking variety) with diving fins?

2. I have heard many hear say that they like the Mares Avanti fins and after doing some looking on the web, they seem to be among the most "standard" diving fins out there. At the dive shop I went to, they didn't carry them (my thought was to go in there with my waders, etc. and try to figure out my size, the go buy them on the web). While there, the guy was showing me some split-fins. He said that they are much more efficient and faster--more propulsion for less effort. I also have a friend who is an avid scuba diver and she told me the same thing. Anyone have any experience with split-fins?

I would appreciate any information.
Thanks.
[signature]

[Majja]

Well here I go. hehe

1: I never wear boots over my stocking footed waders while in my float tube.

2: I did a lot of reading as I am in IT and have all day on a pc. I read reports that say splits are WAY better than conventional fins and than that good conventional fins are better than splits. Remember these are all in the scuba application. I would like to try some splits to see how they do, I just found that most of the splits were WAY expensive. If you can demo some I would suggest that. It might be worth renting and trying them out. In the dive world it is the splits vs conventional ... Kinda like in th float tube world it is Dive fins vs Forcefins.

Good luck on number 2. But in short no problem with not using boots on the waders. I just take some cheap wading shoes so that if I have to walk in my waders I can. (5.00 for the shoes at Wal-mart)

Majja
[signature]

[flygoddess]

Majja, don't know about you, but my waders were over $200. I would be afraid of the fin wearing out the neoprene bootie. And as everyone know, that is the hardest place to seal a leak.
Like I have said before, I like to fish rivers also, so I need the boots for that. I only wear my full waders when I am in my H3 (although I could probably get by with my hippers) so I wear my Simms boots, plus I am ready to walk away from my tube when at shore. I know the booties will do the same and are a lot less money.
In my pontoon, I wear boot foot hippers, so there again is why I bought the Force Fins. LOVE THEM!
I guess it is because I fish rivers I went that way....Multi Fishing LOL
[signature]

[IrishFloatTube]

Similar story here ....

I wear stocking foot neoprenes.
Then just pop my neoprene coated stocking feet directly into my fins and splish-splash - away I go []
[signature]

[Majja]

I just have a pair of Cabela's Dry Plus waders (79.00 on sale). But that being said I do have the boots cause I also Duck hunt and fish rivers some times. I just do not use them in the tube. If i ever get the Simms or Orvis waders I may change my tune. But the dive fins have a great platform for my foot and the straps are soft so I figure since they were made not to rub your skin off the neoprene will be fine.
[signature]

[flygoddess]

Good Point Majja!
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]There are many different fins that will work. Unfortunately, it could get costly to do too much experimentation. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I was a diver about the same time I became a tuber...at age 12. Since then I have tried most styles, if not all models. Again, most will work. I have liked the Mares fins for several reasons. Firstest and foremostest is the "soft pocket" for the feet. You can wear a wide range of bulk on your feet...from light to fully packed...and with proper strap adjustment you will be comfortable and uncramped. Some of the harder pockets create foot cramps, blisters and other nasties. They can also result in constriction, which makes for colder feet in cold water.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Coincidently, I just bought a can of neoprene glue to address the same problem with wearing soft stockingfoot waders inside the fins. Over on the picture board, there are pics of different options for wearing over the soft waders to protect against damage...to you or the waders. I have been wearing some old Cabelas tubing booties for over 20 years, and they are just about ready to be retired. I wear them only over the waders. For tubing wet, I use the "flats boots" or diving booties. They are too small to be stuffed with waders, socks and all that stuff.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]My idea is to glue a protective sole onto the bottom of the soft foot portion of the waders. That's all we need...not a full shoe or boot. I never walk in my waders more than a few feet on the parking lot or shoreline when getting ready to hit the water. But, there are always stickers, glass, sharp rocks or other things that could penetrate or damage the unprotected neoprene.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I have been doing inventory around my place and I have identified several good sources of "sole" for my waders. The first is an old pair of diving booties I no longer use, but which are just the right size to cut down for the soles. Second is a set of "water shoes"...available for under $10 at almost any WallyWorld or discount sporting goods outlet. Again, you can cut away the top portion and glue the soles to the bottom of the neoprene. Third are some of the cheapo sandals you can find anywhere and everywhere. The soles are a bit thicker, but with no extra bulk on top, you should still be able to get them inside your fins with no problem. Fourth is an old pair of "deck shoes"...flimsy cloth top shoes with a rubber sole. Could be just the ticket.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I have thought about it. If we really don't do any serious hiking in our waders, all we really need is a lightweight protective layer between boot and hard surface. I suppose you could even use a discarded padded insole from another pair of shoes.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In the past, I customized a pair of diving booties by using heavy barge cement to glue on a cut-to-fit piece of low profile outdoor carpeting. This helped with slip resistance when I launched over slippery rocks. I'm guessing that a piece of carpet would also do the job just fine.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I will be experimenting in the next few days and will let you know what I find. If anybody else wants to play with making wader soles, you can use neoprene cement, from a diving shop, or you can use shoe goo or any other waterproof glue.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Here's a copy and paste of some of the stuff from the Picture Board.[/#0000ff]
[size 1]
Tubing Footwear


Flats boots by RedHead. Note the raised rubber strap catch on the heel, to help prevent fin straps from sliding off heel.


Flats boots, showing inside zippers.


Tubin' Booties. Once offered by Cabelas but no longer available. Feature wraparound strap with Velcro fastening.


These "extinct" but wonderful footwear for tubers allow pulling them on through the wide back opening, and they are spacious to allow heavily layered wader feet to fit comfortably.


Inexpensive "watershoes". These work great for "wet wading", or for putting over the neoprene boot feet on your waders to protect them while walking or tubing.
(Thanks for the pic, Cat_man) [/size]
[signature]

[toober]

Wow, that was an awesome posting. Incredibly informative. Thanks, TubeDude!

toober
[signature]

[trollboy8]

That is really a shame that they don't sell the "tubin' booties" anymore, that seems to be EXACTLY what I need. As for my situation, like Flygoddess, I also want/need to use my waders for my time on the river and have standard wading boots that I need my waders to fit into--so glueing a sole onto my waders isn't really an option until I can convince myself (read: my wife) that I need to get a second pair of dedicated tubin' waders--then I think your suggestions would be right-on and certainly the most cost effective and comfortable option.

The fins that I was looking at were Tusa X-pert Zoom SF. Now that I have been at work and have been looking at them all day I have some questions with which you call could help. Actually, it is really only one question. These diving fins--really most all diving fins, are engineered for swimming face down, or prone and propelling oneself in that position. I wonder if having shaped fins that are made for prone propulsion would be counter-productive for propulsion in a supine and sitting position (i.e. sitting in the seat of my float tube). In that case perhaps a more neutrally shaped fin (like the Mares Avanti, et al). I don't know if the split-fin argument would also be affected by this different wrinkle as well.

Anyone have an opinion on this?
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Shape of fins different between diving and tubing? Logical question. My personal opinion is that it shoudn't make a great deal of difference. If you are kicking properly while tubing or tooning you should be applying equal force on both the up and down strokes. Sometimes you have to concentrate or you will find yourself giving more power on one or the other.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]After that, it is strictly a matter of basic physics...the ratio of energy expended (by the kicker) to the amount of USEABLE thrust generated in the right direction. The main variables (aside from tuber strength and stamina) are size of the fin blade, stiffness of the fin blade, shape of the fin blade and method of attachment to the feet of the kicker.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In simple terms, a short flexible fin blade will require a lot more kicking (energy) to move your craft the same distance as a longer and stiffer fin blade. But, a "softer" flex will be easier on the kicker over a long day on the water. And, even though you have to make more kicks with wimper fins, you use more energy per kick on heftier ones. I haven't put the scientific measurement instruments on this, but I can personally tell the difference when using the different types of fins.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Those who make and promote fins with channeled grooves and splits all make a good case for whatever unique design it is they are trying to sell. And, just like hot new lures or high priced fishing line, there will be those who buy the fancy stuff and sing its praises...just to keep from appearing fooling for spending the extra money. Much of that stuff is better at catching fishermen than catching fish.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]If a split design is so efficient, why are there not boat and kayak paddles made with splits? Because any less surface to catch the water results in decreased transfer of power from the operator to the craft. I am speaking strictly from the standpoint of a guy who took a lot of hours of physics in school and remembers at least a few of the simpler lessons.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The one area of fin design that does not translate well from diving to tubing is in the superlong freediving fins. The whippy blades on some of those fins are three or four feet long. That's a bit much for tubing or tooning.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In the area of tubing booties, I have just about given up on writing to wader manufacturers, suggestion they design a wader with a thin hard sole. I have also quite trying to convince tube manufacturers to add specialized booties to their lines of accessories..like those of the defunct Cabelas booties. I have considered going into the manufacturing business myself...but I do not want a job. I just want to go fishing...with better booties.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[Saberfish]

[black][size 3]I can only share my personal experiences with you on this subject.[/size][/black]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3]When I started using a pontoon, I purchased Force fins, and have used them ever since with good results.[/size]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3]I have had friends go thru several brands, that either did not hold up, or did not perform well.[/size]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3]I have other friends, who use booties, and get along with them very well. Some with soles work very well.[/size]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3]I wear mine with wading boots, and find that I have "enough shoe" to put my boat in the water, drive my car to the parking lot, and walk back to my boat without pain or wear. I just leave my fins with my boat at waters edge.[/size]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3]I have made many trips, and neither my waders (Simms), boots (Chota), or fins show any signs of wear. The Force fins seem to propel my toon without any problems, and they do not make my legs or ankles tired.[/size]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3][/size]
[signature]

[Thefirststrike]

Tubedude and Trollboy...

Why not just wear the inexpensive water shoes from Walmart, without gluing them onto your stocking foot waders? They are cheap, come off easily when needed, they serve as a sole for walking to and from the water, and they give enough support for your feet and would probably fit nicely into the fins.

I can say from personal experience that wearing the fins without a boot or something stiffer on your foot WILL make your feet pretty tired after several hours on the water. I did last weekend and my feet were so sore after about 3 hours I could barely kick back to shore. OUCH!! I think I will try the cheapo water shoes over the waders myself the next time I hit the water.

Just a thought.

Dave Riley
[signature]

[Thefirststrike]

My chest waders and boots were stolen from my storage locker this past year. I have waist high waders and now that I think about it, I am going to try the water shoes with those the next time I hit the stream. Might be a cheap aternative to buying new boots right now.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]For most tubers, the water shoes are an inexpensive and satisfactory foot covering when wearing soft neoprene foot waders. However, there is a point beyond which they cannot serve any longer. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I have size 13 foot. The largest water shoes I have been able to find are an "offshore" 14...closer to a real size 12. They work fine during the spring and early fall, when I wear my lightweight waders and only a single layer of socks. Once the water chills, and I move up to full neoprenes and multiple layers of socks, the water shoes will no longer fit over my bulked up foot. The cut is too small to take in all that bulk. The only alternative is to remove the skimpy top and glue the soles onto your waders. That is my suggestion.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The Cabelas pull on and velcro models have been my only answer for bulky cold water tubing for many years. I do not necessarily need the extra layer of stretched neoprene for warmth, but I do need the protective sole between the neoprene and the ground.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Similarly, there are no divers booties made (non custom) that are larger than about a 14. And, they are generally cut slim to hold a bare foot comfortably, without blistering, while diving. They are just not designed to accomodate a big foot, with a couple of layers of socks and a bunch of loose fitting neoprene. They work well for wet tubing but not for wader fishing.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I completed my trial run of installing soles on the bottom of the waders today. I will be posting a report, with pics, sometime over the weekend.[/#0000ff]
[signature]

[Thefirststrike]

Oh yeah, I understand. I also have that problem. I usually wear a size 13 shoe, but depending on manufacturer and whatnot, can go anywhere from a 12 to a 14. I have run into that problem with finding wetsuits that fit...the makers think that all divers and snorkeleres must be tiny little skinny boys who wear M or L at the most. After all, we all know that fat people don't dive or anything right?, I have even had problems trying to find waders, although those manufacturers at least recognize that there are big people who fish.

I can understand your dilemna.

Look forward to see how it works.

Dave Riley
[signature]

[trollboy8]

So...Dad gave me his pair of Creek Company fins. My regular wading shoes fit into the foot pocket and the strap fits nicely around the back. As far as securing them to my feet, they were great; however, the fins themselves are very, very stiff and I had to work pretty hard to kick around on my trial run at Salem Pond last night. Another problem I have (and I kind of foresaw) is that I am a pretty short dude and, embarrassing as it is, my legs just don't go all that deep into the water. Combined with the very stiff fins I tend to splash around on the water a lot, which seems pretty counter productive to the stealthy qualities inherent to tubin'. I think I will give my snorkeling fins a try sans waders or boots and finally just try some diving fins and diving booties. Please tell me I'm not the only short guy out there who has the splashing problem! Also, still trying to get the manuvering down--I do think that would be easier with more flexible fins, but I'm sure a lot of it is just trial and error.
[signature]

[Majja]

I am only 5'9" with a 30 inch inseam so no you are not the only short guy. You will get the hang of kicking in stealth mode after a few trips. Think of it this way it is like walking. When you first learn to walk you can not sneak past your old man to get out of the house. by the time you are 17 it is a no brainier.
[signature]