A question for the fishologists on here

[Cowboypirate]

I lived in Maine for a couple years and Alabama for a couple years. Many of the creeks and rivers in these places have solid small mouth, pike, walleye and some panfish populations. Especially small mouth seem able to adapt. So why have, say the small mouth, never pushed up the Weber and established. Or pick your species and moving body of water with the same question.

I have a few theories I suggested when Cookie asked me but I figured I would ask the great masters of fishology here for your thoughts.

Tight lines

[meancuznalfy]

Not good enough habitat for them.

[Joe_Dizzy]

Too cold. SM bass (and others listed) are warmwater species.

[smokepoles]

I lived in Maine for a couple years and Alabama for a couple years. Many of the creeks and rivers in these places have solid small mouth, pike, walleye and some panfish populations. Especially small mouth seem able to adapt. So why have, say the small mouth, never pushed up the Weber and established. Or pick your species and moving body of water with the same question.

I have a few theories I suggested when Cookie asked me but I figured I would ask the great masters of fishology here for your thoughts.

Tight lines

Though not an ichthyologist, I believe that in general the intermountain rivers are cold water habitats not altogether favorable in environment and forage for the warm water species you mention.  There is of course some overlap especially where we have intervened with dams and reservoirs that alter the environment such that the warm water species can survive in rather localized areas.

[stan55]

Not to mention the gov't freaks out if smallies and eyes get into the Colorado river basin. Provo and Weber are generally too cold as mentioned.

[TubeDude]

How do you know they haven't.  It is likely that some have ventured upstream or downstream but did not find the habitat to their liking.  As others have mentioned, smallies prefer water warmer than even the summer flows of most of our rivers fed from the bottoms of deep reservoirs.  But that is not the only factor that will move them back to the lakes.  They gotta have food too.  In the cool water streams where smallies hang out in the higher altitude eastern states there is usually an abundant food supply...of crawdads and minnows of multiple species.  Most of our streams have some bitty bite trout snacks but not much in the way of a well stocked bass kitchen.

[Cowboypirate]

I appreciate the input so far. Far smarter than me know this stuff well.. I should offer my thoughts, though, since I profferd the inquiry.

Temps: ya they matter - a lot- not disputing that at all, but I can personally attest to how cold it gets in Old Town Maine and the local smallies just thumb their nose at the thermometer and go about procreating and consuming as if they had some God given right to such nonsense. And the ones in upstate Michigan apparently did not get the blizzard memo either. I also mentioned pike and walleye. Well at some point a few of them took a vacation to northern Canada, lost thier visa, and just decided to stay. They now offer some of the most amazing fishing short of a midnight fence- jumping trip to the Kamas fish hatchey. So temps matter but I belive many of our warm water friend are figuring out how to wear wool without itching.

Food base: no question the food base is a factor. The abundance of Chicken Nuggets in the Penobscot River was astounding. Even if you offered to super-sized the meal you would often got an eye roll like Cookie gives me when I suggest I don't have enough elk har caddis in the bag and a trip to Cabelas is in order. So to Pat's point I bet they have wandered up the Weber from Echo ( in fact I know they have ) but they did not appreciate the forced entry into the Jenny Craig weight watcher club and opted to return to deeper waters to
slurp up some more perchy fries.

A new idea to ruminate on...

One thing that I think is a major factor as it impacts temps, habitable habitat and food base is the significant variation in our river levels due to drawdown from irrigation demand. I suspect that creates challenges that are hard to overcome. I mean when a crawdad has to sneak out of a rock hole to get his head wet when in is raining it might be asking a bit for bass to take hold. Just for reference our family farms ground along the Weber so I am not implying that the irrigation is wrong just that it creates challenges to river critters.

[TubeDude]

As you have correctly observed, smallies do thrive in some of the colder flows of the east...so temps are not the sole deciding factor on taking up permanent residence.  However, the available groceries are always a big issue.  Can't live if ya can't eat.

Howsomever, one of the big factors in permanent residence for smallies is a suitable and stable habitat.  Most running waters in which you find a goodly number of smallies have a fairly stable year round flow...at least enough to provide some depth and shelter out of the main current.  A rolling tumbling trout crick just won't get it for smallies...and sometimes even for trout...especially with our variations in desert weather and water conditions.

[Cowboypirate]

As you have correctly observed, smallies do thrive in some of the colder flows of the east...so temps are not the sole deciding factor on taking up permanent residence.  However, the available groceries are always a big issue.  Can't live if ya can't eat.

Howsomever, one of the big factors in permanent residence for smallies is a suitable and stable habitat.  Most running waters in which you find a goodly number of smallies have a fairly stable year round flow...at least enough to provide some depth and shelter out of the main current.  A rolling tumbling trout crick just won't get it for smallies...and sometimes even for trout...especially with our variations in desert weather and water conditions.

Completely agree. If we had stable flows on the Weber, the prey base and habitat would become more inviting and I bet a few Smallies would venture up and try to settle in. Not going to happen in an arid climate were flows are driven not just by melt but by discharge and recharge irrigation demands.

Most of the Smallie rivers I got to play in up in the NE part of our country were big, steady and full of deep runs and holes.

Oh on differnt subject I see the biologists dropped some more cats into Echo. I would love to see them take hold. I know there are still a few good ones in there from previous transplants. I think Ira hooked one a few years back.

[SkunkedAgain]

To add a different perspective, but maybe confirm some of the last comments... Idaho had planted smallies in Onieda reservoir, not sure how long ago, but they have found their way down stream in the Bear River to where there is an interesting population in Cutler Reservoir... So they will travel in rivers in Utah, but it may be the larger more consistent waters that remain somewhat steady year round. I don't know if they have found their way into the lower Bear the other side of Cutler dam, but they are in the upstream side of things... Interesting, I have heard the lower Bear has shad in it, suspect that they came from Willard Bay, but so far we haven't seen any that made their way over the dam at Cutler... i guess this is why I received so much attention when I suggested that we needed to plant white bass in Cutler.... Seems like they go everywhere once they are planted, so I see why the division has to be so careful and consider what the effects are when they try a new species in an area... With the smallie effect you may be lucky you aren't getting what you asked for, I hear the smallie will run most everything else out, or at least put a hurt on them... (Hasn't effected the carp in Cutler though...) Later Jeff

[lovetofish]

I used to fish the Weber River between Rockport and Echo on a weekly basis. I have caught Smallies quite a few times over the years. I suspect that they came down from Rockport rather than coming up from Echo.

[Jig-fisher]

To add a different perspective, but maybe confirm some of the last comments... Idaho had planted smallies in Onieda reservoir, not sure how long ago, but they have found their way down stream in the Bear River to where there is an interesting population in Cutler Reservoir... So they will travel in rivers in Utah, but it may be the larger more consistent waters that remain somewhat steady year round.  I don't know if they have found their way into the lower Bear the other side of Cutler dam, but they are in the upstream side of things... Interesting, I have heard the lower Bear has shad in it, suspect that they came from Willard Bay, but so far we haven't seen any that made their way over the dam at Cutler... i guess this is why I received so much attention when I suggested that we needed to plant white bass in Cutler.... Seems like they go everywhere once they are planted, so I see why the division has to be so careful and consider what the effects are when they try a new species in an area... With the smallie effect you may be lucky you aren't getting what you asked for, I hear the smallie will run most everything else out, or at least put a hurt on them...  (Hasn't effected the carp in Cutler though...) Later Jeff

There's a good population of smallies in the lower Bear. I used to catch them consistently around Tremonton in the summer. I never caught anything big, but sometimes I would target them just to see how many I could catch. They liked the steep edges of the river. Small cranks cast a foot or two away from the edge of the bank were seldom ignored. I even caught one down in the lower reaches going out to the refuge one day.

[Joe_Dizzy]

To add a different perspective, but maybe confirm some of the last comments... Idaho had planted smallies in Onieda reservoir, not sure how long ago, but they have found their way down stream in the Bear River to where there is an interesting population in Cutler Reservoir... So they will travel in rivers in Utah, but it may be the larger more consistent waters that remain somewhat steady year round.  I don't know if they have found their way into the lower Bear the other side of Cutler dam, but they are in the upstream side of things... Interesting, I have heard the lower Bear has shad in it, suspect that they came from Willard Bay, but so far we haven't seen any that made their way over the dam at Cutler... i guess this is why I received so much attention when I suggested that we needed to plant white bass in Cutler.... Seems like they go everywhere once they are planted, so I see why the division has to be so careful and consider what the effects are when they try a new species in an area... With the smallie effect you may be lucky you aren't getting what you asked for, I hear the smallie will run most everything else out, or at least put a hurt on them...  (Hasn't effected the carp in Cutler though...) Later Jeff

There's a good population of smallies in the lower Bear. I used to catch them consistently around Tremonton in the summer. I never caught anything big, but sometimes I would target them just to see how many I could catch. They liked the steep edges of the river. Small cranks cast a foot or two away from the edge of the bank were seldom ignored. I even caught one down in the lower reaches going out to the refuge one day.

And I am going climb out on a very thick limb here and guess that on average, the lower Bear River runs warmer than the Weber (or other "trout" rivers).

Per CowboyPirate's last reply - can Smallmouth Bass survive, and feed. in cold water? Absolutely. Can they thrive in cold water year-round? Absolutely not. All fish species have a preferred temperature range and do best in waters with extended periods where those temperatures are available. And no surprise - the things they feed on often have the same preferences.

[wormandbobber]

I just returned from a recent trip on the Sevier River in Kingston Canyon below Otter Creek Reservoir and upstream from Piute. Both Piute and Otter Creek have not only had smallmouth stocked in them over the years but both have had very good populations of smallmouth at times (Piute has been drained several times and its fish populations really fluctuate). While fishing the Sevier, we had quite a few crayfish latching on to our minnows we were drifting. I caught at least five crayfish and my brother caught about that many more. The food base in the Sevier River not only through Kingston Canyon but also downstream of Piute in Marysvale Canyon as well as Otter Creek the stream near Angle has good numbers of crayfish....yet, I have never seen or caught a smallie in any portion of these streams. Yet, I have caught them below Yuba. To me, it is all about the water temps for smallmouth...