Landlocked king salmon

[doitall5000]

Some of the resavors in California and  Washington have king salmon is the same waters as kokanees. 
That sounds very interesting,  have any of you captains caught any kings?  Sounds like a good thing to me.  Don't think the Gorge is a good place but maybe strawberry.  A few less cutthroat trout would be needed.

[2knots]

Yes fished for them in a couple of the lakes in Cali and the ocean. In the lakes they can be very deep during the summer 200’ or more down although they do come up to feed on the shad for small windows. In Monterey Bay we have fished up to 400’ down for them, depends on where the bait is at but as the summer comes and the anchovies show up further north 60’ or less is the norm. Anderson Ranch in Idaho above Mountain Home has kings in it

[PBH]

 Sounds like a good thing to me.  Don't think the Gorge is a good place but maybe strawberry.  A few less cutthroat trout would be needed.

Don't think for a second that it hasn't been tried.  Look at the history of some of our waters in Utah, and you'll find that this is not a new idea, and [fortunately] has never worked.

In 1924 Atlantic Salmon were stocked into Fish Lake.  Chinook (King) salmon in 1925.  Coho (silver) in 1926.  Chums (dogs) in 1939.

In 1873 Chinook were introduced into the Jordan River.

Coho were introduced into Strawberry some time before 1930 -- anglers had some mixed results at both Strawberry and Fish Lake catching coho.


There is a pretty good reason why Utah has settled for Kokanee.  They are viable options, while those other species just simply are not suited for our waters.

[doitall5000]

 Sounds like a good thing to me.  Don't think the Gorge is a good place but maybe strawberry.  A few less cutthroat trout would be needed.

Don't think for a second that it hasn't been tried.  Look at the history of some of our waters in Utah, and you'll find that this is not a new idea, and [fortunately] has never worked.

In 1924 Atlantic Salmon were stocked into Fish Lake.  Chinook (King) salmon in 1925.  Coho (silver) in 1926.  Chums (dogs) in 1939.

In 1873 Chinook were introduced into the Jordan River.

Coho were introduced into Strawberry some time before 1930 -- anglers had some mixed results at both Strawberry and Fish Lake catching coho.


There is a pretty good reason why Utah has settled for Kokanee.  They are viable options, while those other species just simply are not suited for our waters.

Thank you, I was not aware.   I think some of our waters have to many varieties.  Mostly done by unauthorized fisherman,  it does make good management hard.

[PBH]

Further -- other ocean species have been introduced into Utah waters, which have had a very significant impact the fishery.  Look no further than Lake Powell and striped bass.

Striped bass were believed by some (not all!) to not be able to spawn in Lake Powell.  Stripers are an Atlantic Ocean fish that run up fresh water rivers to spawn.  When dams first showed up in the east, many stripers were landlocked, and yet thrived.  Their use as a sportfish in freshwater reservoirs became popular.  They ended up in the West in, and even have populations that still run the Sacramento river.  They thrived in the lower Colorado River (Meade, Havasu, etc.).  So, the thought was that they would be good in Lake Powell - imagine schools of 15lb stripers!  They would need a "clean" river to spawn in, and the Colorado and San Juan rivers were believed to be too silty for an viable reproduction.  The problem?  Stripers didn't need the river after all, and immediately began spawning throughout Lake Powell.

The problem?  Food.  Lake Powell had, and still to this day has, a prey problem.  Stripers wipe out the shad source very frequently, leaving skinny and starving stripers.  The hopes for having schools of 10 - 14lb stripers in Lake Powell never materialized, and we have huge schools of starving 24" stripers in stead.  Those fish struggle to feed in the summer when surface temperatures become too high for their survival -- so they stay deeper, where there is no food.  Smaller stripers, those 2-3 year old fish are able to handle those higher temps, and spend the summer months gorging on available shad, essentially wiping out the shad populations.  By the time fall comes, when the bigger stripers can come to the surface, those fish are typically in poor shape and cannot compete with the smaller stripers for food.  Over the winter, those "bigger" stripers die.


What's the comparison with stripers and salmon?  food.  Keep in mind that the ocean provides an enormous smorgasbord of food for species like Chinook.  How do you think those salmon (chinook) get to reach sizes of 60 - 100lbs in 7 years?!  They are voracious feeders!  Now, imagine trying to get those fish to survive in a lake like Bear Lake.  Sure, Bear Lake has good depth, and cold water.  But that water is extremely sterile!  The cisco would be wiped out, the cutthroat would and lake trout would be left competing with a another species and all fish would struggle.  Our reservoirs, including Strawberry and Fish Lake, would never be able to produce enough food for a species like chinook, coho, or chum salmon.  Those fish require enormous amounts of food that these systems simply would not be able to produce.

While on the surface, we can all dream about going to Strawberry, Fish Lake, Bear Lake, or any other number of lakes in Utah and catching 20lb coho salmon, or even bigger chinook -- but in reality it would never happen and we'd all just be disappointed.

[Gone Forever]

They have been stocked in the Great Lakes with success, the famed "Salmon River" of NY is an example of the fishery in Lake Ontario.
Lake Ontario is huge, it also had an alewife problem where millions of the fish would wash up on the shore in the summer, making a stinking mess. Salmon were introduced to help that and they have. Growing to average 20 lbs and becoming the most important sport fishery in Lake Ontario.
As far as Utah, I think only FG has the size and river, but it does not have the forage and with things like the Burbot invasion it could not support another predator.

[Fritzfishin]

Hooked into a 20lb Chinook in the ole Jordan just the other day matter of fact.. big rare golden colored one.. they've adapted to blend into the water more I guess

[Crimson]

They have been stocked in the Great Lakes with success, the famed "Salmon River" of NY is an example of the fishery in Lake Ontario. 
Lake Ontario is huge, it also had an alewife problem where millions of the fish would wash up on the shore in the summer, making a stinking mess.  Salmon were introduced to help that and they have.  Growing to average 20 lbs and becoming the most important sport fishery in Lake Ontario.
As far as Utah, I think only FG has the size and river, but it does not have the forage and with things like the Burbot invasion it could not support another predator.

Not the same type of Salmon, but this discussion makes me wonder why DWR thought it was a good idea to start stocking Kokanee in East Canyon again. Kokanee were stocked in EC many years ago, but didn't take for whatever reason.

Wondering what may have changed, especially in low water years, to make it seem viable to them now?

[doitall5000]

Lots of lakes threw out the northwest have kokanees but don't get much over 16 inches.

[Gone Forever]

Not the same type of Salmon?
From the NYS DEC, "The two species of Pacific Salmon found in Lake Ontario are the Chinook (King) and Coho salmon. Chinook salmon grow larger and are more heavily stocked than the Coho, with approximately 1.7 million Chinook salmon and 250,000 Coho salmon stocked annually in Lake Ontario and its tributaries by New York State."
I ran a guide service on Lake Ontario in the 80's.
Not sure why the try again with the Kokes in EC, but they are putting them in every place that has a decent inlet stream. I hope they can run all the way up to MacLeod Creek from EC and all the way up the Weber from Rockport.

[lifeshort]

Not the same type of Salmon, but this discussion makes me wonder why DWR thought it was a good idea to start stocking Kokanee in East Canyon again.  Kokanee were stocked in EC many years ago, but didn't take for whatever reason.

Wondering what may have changed, especially in low water years, to make it seem viable to them now?

Does the DWR expect them to naturally reproduce or is it another put and take species that fills a niche such as rainbows, wipers, muskies etc.. Put their for another opportunity for us to catch?

[catchinon]

Do I hear Charles Darwin laughing in his grave? He figured all this out nearly 200 years ago. When will man ever learn? We need to understand how to keep a balance and not fight Mother Nature.

---

P.S.  I like to double check my statement of "facts." Turns out that On the Origin of Species was actually published exactly 162 years ago today.

[johnboy83]

 Sounds like a good thing to me.  Don't think the Gorge is a good place but maybe strawberry.  A few less cutthroat trout would be needed.

Don't think for a second that it hasn't been tried.  Look at the history of some of our waters in Utah, and you'll find that this is not a new idea, and [fortunately] has never worked.

In 1924 Atlantic Salmon were stocked into Fish Lake.  Chinook (King) salmon in 1925.  Coho (silver) in 1926.  Chums (dogs) in 1939.

In 1873 Chinook were introduced into the Jordan River.

Coho were introduced into Strawberry some time before 1930 -- anglers had some mixed results at both Strawberry and Fish Lake catching coho.


There is a pretty good reason why Utah has settled for Kokanee.  They are viable options, while those other species just simply are not suited for our waters.

Are you a marine biologist?

[Riverdogs]

 Sounds like a good thing to me.  Don't think the Gorge is a good place but maybe strawberry.  A few less cutthroat trout would be needed.

Don't think for a second that it hasn't been tried.  Look at the history of some of our waters in Utah, and you'll find that this is not a new idea, and [fortunately] has never worked.

In 1924 Atlantic Salmon were stocked into Fish Lake.  Chinook (King) salmon in 1925.  Coho (silver) in 1926.  Chums (dogs) in 1939.

In 1873 Chinook were introduced into the Jordan River.

Coho were introduced into Strawberry some time before 1930 -- anglers had some mixed results at both Strawberry and Fish Lake catching coho.


There is a pretty good reason why Utah has settled for Kokanee.  They are viable options, while those other species just simply are not suited for our waters.

Are you a marine biologist?

He's a Heppy, It's in his fish-scented blood.

[gmwahl]

Looking through historical records maintained by the DWR, I found that utah has a king salmon record. Caught in Bear Lake in the 30's! I can't remember what archive I found it in, but it shouldn't be too hard to find again.

Mike

Edit: I found where I read this. It is on the junesucker.com website under History of Utah Fishing Regulations. Apparently the year was 1931 and a 32 pound chinook salmon was caught. This is the only info I have been able to dig up on this, however.

[PBH]

[font="Open Sans", sans-serif]makes me wonder why DWR thought it was a good idea to start stocking Kokanee in East Canyon again. Kokanee were stocked in EC many years ago, but didn't take for whatever reason.[/font]

[font="Open Sans", sans-serif]Wondering what may have changed, especially in low water years, to make it seem viable to them now?[/font]

A couple things have changed.

1.  Hatcheries ability to produce enough kokanee salmon to continue a stocking program.  The fisheries don't have to rely on natural reproduction because the hatcheries can keep making enough to sustain a fishery.

2.  they also will utilize "lake spawning" strains kokanee in some situations (ie: Fish Lake) in hopes that maybe they'll get some natural reproduction.  At Fish Lake we already know that Twin Creeks is simply too cold for natural reproduction, and thus kokanee attempts in years past failed because the fish couldn't self sustain.  The program today relies on hatcheries to sustain the fishery, but they also use a lake spawning strain in hopes to get some natural reproduction to supplement the hatchery stocking.




I'm not a marine biologist, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.

[Crimson]

[font="Open Sans", sans-serif]makes me wonder why DWR thought it was a good idea to start stocking Kokanee in East Canyon again. Kokanee were stocked in EC many years ago, but didn't take for whatever reason.[/font]

[font="Open Sans", sans-serif]Wondering what may have changed, especially in low water years, to make it seem viable to them now?[/font]

A couple things have changed.

1.  Hatcheries ability to produce enough kokanee salmon to continue a stocking program.  The fisheries don't have to rely on natural reproduction because the hatcheries can keep making enough to sustain a fishery.

2.  they also will utilize "lake spawning" strains kokanee in some situations (ie: Fish Lake) in hopes that maybe they'll get some natural reproduction.  At Fish Lake we already know that Twin Creeks is simply too cold for natural reproduction, and thus kokanee attempts in years past failed because the fish couldn't self sustain.  The program today relies on hatcheries to sustain the fishery, but they also use a lake spawning strain in hopes to get some natural reproduction to supplement the hatchery stocking.




I'm not a marine biologist, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.

Good to know.  Thanks for the info.  I do like the fact they are planting Kokanee in so many waters.  Many, especially East Canyon, are close to where I live.

[doitall5000]

I read about a strain of kokanee in Canada that were faster growing, and would go one more year before spawning. I think they were lake spawning kokes.

[WET1]

Might work pretty well if you traded out the cutthroat for them. Kokanee and Kings works pretty well in Idaho, not only in Anderson but also  Pend Oreille and Coeur D'Alene

[PBH]

Might work pretty well if you traded out the cutthroat for them. Kokanee and Kings works pretty well in Idaho, not only in Anderson but also  Pend Oreille and Coeur D'Alene

What do the cutthroat do that would harm the kokanee or chinook?


I seriously doubt that the reason chinook failed in the past had anything to do with cutthroat.