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This morning just as i was leaving for work channel 13 news said that the DWR next spring is going to start removing carp from utah lake![shocked] They are doing this to try and preserve the june sucker from extinction.I got my money on the carp![sly] Its going to take a lot of netting to remove all those carp and were are they going to dispose of them?Hopefully they can find some kind of orginization that can take them and use them for food for hungry people.Or sell them to a west coast chum factory.What do you guys think?[crazy]
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I think it's a waste of my licence dollars.
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Don't you mean your tax dollars. They wouldn't be doing this if the feds didn't pay for it.
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I'll take a few of those carp.
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i'll put my money on the carp!
hey they have been trying to get the chub out of lakes for years and have not been able to do it so now why do they think they better luck with the carp? and they cant even use poison? I dont think so..
dude on fish?
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I don't think that they expect to totally eliminate the carp just put a big dent in their numbers so that the lake can recover. I bet cat lovers would pay a little extra $$ for catfood with real fish in it. Aquarium fish food is made from fish also. Other than pet food manufacturers, I can't think of anyone who would want that much crap - oops I mean carp. Fertilizer might work, but doesn't seem that cost effective and would stink like heck!
Does anyone know for sure how they plan to get the carp out? I can't imagine the the government would pay to take them out. I would guess they would give incentives to some business to take care of them.
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my guess is, they are going to use fed money stating that removing the carp from the lake is vital to the survival of the endangered june sucker. they will get the money through the same people that have restored and reintroduced the wolves and condors.
on a side note i think that carp will win unless they put a bounty on the fish
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[crazy]I'm with you, my money is on the Carp. I dont see much of a den taking place in such a large population in a body of water as big as Utah Lake with the warm water spawning conditions that Utah Lake provides carp, or as I call them, " kittie bait". But hey, it might provide 1 or 2 minimum wage jobs to waste my tax dollars on so who am I to complain about it?[laugh]
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Listen to you guys, alittle while ago you all were talking about how such a great thing it would be to remove all the carp for a better fishery and cleaner water etc., now your saying its a waste of money, time, and effort. Well my bet is on the DWR, Im sure they can remove a great number of carp dureing the spawn. And I dout the DWR will only do it this 1 time, it will probabley be a 2 year or so ordeal. Im not saying they are going to eradicate the carp all together, for im sure that would prove impossible, but im sure enough to drastically reduce their numbers. And im all up for it. Ill even volunteer to help out if necessary!
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[cool] [blue][size 1]A former favorite uncle (now deceased) used to use an expression to convey difficulty: "Harder than stuffin' hot butter up a wildcat's &%% with a pair o' knittin' needles." I think that sums up the potential for totally removing the carp from Utah Lake...or any body of water they have taken over.[/size][/blue]
[#0000ff][size 1]Short of a mass poisoning of the lake and tributaries, there can be no way to completely remove the carp. However, any effort is better than none. As has been suggested, even a small reduction in the carp biomass should have some positive effect.[/size][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][size 1]The Loy family has been making a good living for many years by commercially seining out large quantities of carp. They sell them to several different interests, who use them for anything from fish sticks to pet food to fertilizer. Who knows how many tons of buglemouths they have removed from the Utah Lake ecosystem over the years? One thing is for sure. They have not put carp on the endangered species list.[/size][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][size 1]But, every female carp removed from the system before spawning reduces the potential population by the number of offspring that would survive from her spawning. Carp lay bazillions of eggs. Even though the eggs and young are eaten by the millions, by other fish and invertebrates, many more millions survive to adult size. [/size][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][size 1]I don't know the actual numbers for carp, but with many species it is considered a successful spawn each year if a spawning pair simply leave behind enough living young to replace themselves. I suspect that the survival rate for carplets is much greater.[/size][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][size 1]Some things are hard to put a price tag on. What kind of value do you put on the  of a loved one? How much is a first fish worth? How about a sunset that brings tears to your eyes? A bunch of dead carp hardly fall into those categories, but they can be a step toward making Utah Lake a better place for the other fish...and fishermen. [/size][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][size 1]So, instead of counting the dollars each of us contributes to the slaughter, let's get behind the effort and hope that we get our money's worth (for a change). Heck, why not go out and harvest a few ourselves? [/size][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][size 1]Utah Lake will never be returned to a clear mountain lake with abundant native species like cutthroats and June suckers. But, it is better to keep up an effort to stabilize or even reverse the current problems than to throw rocks at those who are at least making some kind of attempt for improvement. [/size][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][size 1]Better to have loved and lost...far better. (Don't know what that's got to do with it, but I like to say it.)[/size][/#0000ff]
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Nope, Not once do I recall I said a word about how great a fishery it would be if the carp were removed, not once. Infact I dont care if the carp stay or not. Thruth be known baby carp provide great meals for the Eye's, Whites and Channel Cats so the carp cant stay right there as far as I'm concerned. What I did say was I dont believe the carp themselves are responsible for the stained waters of Utah Lake. I also added that its my belief that the shallow water conditions and heavy wave action is far more the cause of muddy waters in Utah lake than carp are. And yes,, lets not forget to mention the general lack of aquatic vegetation other than green slime moss.
As far as the DWR's future effort to remove carp in great numbers from Utah Lake, I wish them good luck! The commercial fishermen have been netting spawning carp for years and years on end and have yet to do a lot of damage to the carp population. This is merely a case of wishful thinking on the part DWR's as I see it. But as I said, it may produce a job or two even though they'll be somewhat seasonal.[crazy]
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Pat as I see it, its a case of to little to late. Personally, I'm tired of my tax dollars being spent chasing pile dreams. Another factor many seem to forget is, perhap nature in itself has a better plain. After all, it was man that caused the damage and "its not nice to fool with mother nature". Maybe its time man stops mucking things up and allows old mother nature her will for a change.
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I personally think they'd be better off hunting a rabid bull elephant with s slingshot, than try to get all the carp out of Utah Lake! But I applaud them for their efforts. I'd be willing to donate some time to help out as well. I think if a sizeable dent is put in the population, it will be better for the lake all around. They will never be irradicated from that place, but it will be nice to see some of them used for cat food.
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Now I have to wonder, if the state is willing to void the lake of Carp why then cant we haul meat grinders out and feed the remains to the kitties? I might consider being apart of that. Hmmmmmmm, where ta heck did I leave combine?[cool]
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I for one hope that the DWR suceeds. Even if they could take 50% of the carp out I think it would make a dramatic impacked on the lake, And I will do what I can to help.
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Here is the article in the Herald about it. My opinion is that they will find it impossible to put a dent in the carp over the whole lake and will have to go with "plan B" listed at the end of this article. The sancuaries (diked areas of the lake) and the general habitat enhancement in the recovery effort will ultimately improve the fishing there, so it will still be worthwhile.
Carp Tagging folo
Date July 11, 2004
Caleb Warnock
DAILY HERALD
Utah Lake officials could launch a project to begin removing carp from Utah Lake as early as next spring.
Scientists have just completed a 15-day, $130,000 study of carp populations in Utah Lake, said Chris Keleher, conservation biologist with the June Sucker Recovery Implementation Program. More than 34,000 carp were captured, tagged and released during the first phase of the study. Another 10,000 carp were then captured; only 2 percent of those -- 208 carp -- had tags. Over the next few weeks, experts will use that information to determine a statistical carp population.
"All indicators are that the carp population is extremely large," Keleher said. "At this point, we don't see any natural control of that population."
Carp are devastating Utah Lake, Keleher said. Averaging about 2 feet and weighing 8.7 pounds, the fish have reduced the lake bed to mud in the 123 years since they were introduced by settlers. They eat vegetation, stripping it away from the edge of the lake, making it all but impossible for the spawn of the endangered June sucker to hide from predators.
And as the carp forage the mud, they churn up years of trapped phosphorus, feeding algae that deplete the water of oxygen.
Because so few tagged carp were found in the second phase of the study, a precise number of carp in the lake will be hard to define, Keleher said. Researchers will
recommend to June sucker officials that another survey be done next spring -- with carp removal beginning at the same time. A final decision will be made in December or January.
"If we want to get a more diverse community of fish in Utah Lake, we have to control the carp," Keleher said. "That means more fish, including the June sucker. You would get restoration of aquatic plants, and you get habitat complexity that provides cover for young fish and aquatic bugs, and with that comes more diverse bird species and things like that. There is an entire ecosystem response if we can get control of the carp."
After a second study next year, researchers could determine, depending on the data gathered, that the carp population is so pervasive that no human effort to control them will succeed, he said.
The June sucker Recovery Program has an annual budget of $1 million, which must be split between research, water quality enhancement, water and habitat acquisition and carp control and other habitat management efforts. It is not clear how much money would be available for carp removal next year.
"What it is going to come down to is whether it is cost effective to control them," he said. "Only a portion of the budget can go for carp control."
If removing carp is deemed too expensive or unlikely to succeed, experts may try to turn small parts of the lake into a June sucker sanctuary where young June sucker could be bred and raised, he said.
Another option would be to wait for several research projects being done in Australia and other parts of the world where scientists are trying to implant a gene into carp that would kill them after they have bred.
"It is theoretical right now, but a lot of effort is being put into dealing with carp," he said. "What they are trying to develop is an induced fatality gene. They hope to raise carp with this gene in a hatchery and release them into the population to interbreed. When they are dispersed, some mechanism would trigger mortality."
In the 1800s, Utah Lake was home to at least six native species of fish, Keleher said. Today, the June sucker and the Utah sucker are the only two remaining. The June sucker occurs naturally nowhere else in the world. After nine years of study, experts believe Utah Lake has only 450 adult wild June suckers left.
In 1986, the federal government named the June sucker an endangered species, allowing its habitat to be protected by law. Soon thereafter, nine water-user and wildlife groups with interest in Deer Creek Reservoir formed a 40-year, $40 million plan to save the fish, called the June Sucker Recovery Implementation Program.
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[size 3]I'm thinking it will be a toss up. [/size]
[size 3]If they plan it right, the DWR can probably make a big dent in the carp population. Hope you like fish sticks.[/size]
[size 3]On the other hand, can they diminish the carp population without hurting the ecosystem that has developed there? How many other species rely on the carp eggs and young ones for food?[/size]
[size 3]If they plan it out and work through everything I'm with the DWR. In fact, I'll volunteer to help. Maybe they'll let me use it as dedicated hunter hours. But if they don't plan it out, there will be a bid hoopla over the wasted money.[/size]
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I have a couple questions:
1) How do they plan on getting the carp out of the lake?
2) Is there any way we as fisherman could help or even a BFT get together or something could help the DWR get rid of the carp?
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That would be great if they could develope a mutant gene (they have done it successfully with some insects) that would cause them to die off. Short of that, the only hope would be ongoing major and expensive management projects. I grew up around Utah Lake, and not only are there carp everywhere in Utah Lake, they are thick in the many streams (up several miles in many of them) that feed Utah Lake. If they make an all-out push and somehow make a dent in the population it will all be wasted effort if they don't continue that same level of effort every year therafter.
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I'll also wager heavily on the carp. With the numbers and size of the water, it would be impossible. But my main concern is the game fish. I don't think carp is an important forage since white bass is the main food there, but I'm worried that traps, gillnets, or other means of carp control might accidentally injure and kill numerous lmb, walleyes, cats, and white bass since they use the same areas and habitat as carp. In fact, I've often seen walleyes follow schools of carp around in the inlets. After a huge migration of giant carp upstream, a few days later the huge walleyes and bass follow and the both mill around for a bit before going back down to the lake. Thus, whatever mechanisms they utilize to trap the carp will also trap game fish.
Further, you have to keep in mind who is behind this. If these June sucker preservationists do succeed with carp removal, they may utilize extra funding for other radical ideas. For example, they may want to move on and eliminate largemouth, walleyes, and white bass so as to eliminate predation on the june suckers. I have mixed feelings about this. Although I don't particularly care for carp, I'm worried about the ramifications from this. Personally, I think they might as well leave things alone. Look at Kaysville pond for example. They wanted to make it better by dredging it deeper. Better for what, I ask. In my view, they drained the pond and killed all my 5-6lb lmb. Then they removed the rocks and reeds around the edge of the pond so as to prevent any future bedding areas for bass. Then they refilled the empty pond but the shoreline is now a steep clay bank. That pond is never going to recover. I wish they hadn't done anything to "improve" the place.
Besides, I personally don't buy into the idea that removing the carp will improve the fishery. The fishery is magnificent as is. Where else can you catch and release lmb that average 18 inches with some over 20"? And numbers too. You can land up to 30 bass a day at times. And tons of giant walleyes and catfish too. Not to mention white bass and crappies in the millions. I say why mess with a good thing. The ecosystem is fine as is. But I would advocate a restriction on the pumphouse. It drains the lake way too much in the summer for irrigation water that is often just wasted. There should be a strict cubic feet regulation on water removal for irrigation. This is my two cents.
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