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You could be right, I assume they left any direct evidence out of the article due to the pending investigation. And if they are correct then Yes these guys should be convicted to the full extent of the law.
But at the same time we as a people shouldn't be jumping to conclusions and crucifying possibly innocent people. Without any evidence stories like this breed paranoia, and paranoia breeds racism, and crime itself.
And as far as water-boarding goes when did we as Americans become what we hate.
If you know anything about torture tactics most will admit to anything to stop being tortured. If someone told you they were going to kill and blowup your family you would do or saying anything to stop it right...Right so when a person is water-boarded they get the death feeling there being drown and will do or say anything to stop it.
Which in turn causes more problems cause now sine we have a false positive on the terrorists the heighten level of security is lowered and it make it that much easier for the real terrorists.
[#0000ff]I detached this part of the original thread because it had gone off topic. WH2[/#0000ff]
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Racism ? Not hardly. If they have the intelligence on them the news says they do. There is no way they are just some innocent group of people breaking into a court house with no other intentions. The news intentionally down plays all possible acts of terrorism. IE: Ft Hood shooter yelling Ala Akbar while shooting our troops, the President then states we shouldn't jump to conclusions, others insinuating it's racist to jump to that conclusion. It's pure idiocy. Anyone with a lick of sense knew that guy was a terrorist. Common sense says these people have other intentions. I'm not stating waterboard anyone who may or may not have any knowledge of a terrorist act. However, if it's going to save a city from a biological attack and the guy you've got isn't talking, waterboard away!
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What you got to be kidding your original post is flawed and morally atrocious. So from your statement we should torture / water-board every possible criminal we think is a terrorist ... So say your boating along Echo onday and a group of people think your suspicious we should torture you till you give up some info ???
All news article says is that they have pictures from around the country doesn't even say Echo or even Utah.
These people may not even be connected to Utah
But hey lets accuse these guys of a biological attack and water-board them before any additional info has been released. How about gathering all the intel and making a rational decision before you convict people.
The article is just one radio station out of Texas. Have you even tried to justify its sources before you came to the conclusion these people should be water-boarded ?
And Yes Paranoia spreads racism If people are perceived threat then people negatively react to them when in reality there was no evidence they were a threat in the first place.
Damm Salem witch trials
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Those are your words. Read exactly what I wrote and try again. You're not even on the same planet as what I'm writing. I stated exactly the opposite of what you are accusing me of saying in my last post.
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Talk about back peddling
you wrote
[quote submoa]The connection appears to be obvious to me. They have maps of waterways all over America they said on the news. [/quote]
[quote submoa]There isn't a guarantee they are the group which were here and maybe they weren't. The coincidence here is pretty strong. [/quote]
[quote submoa]I don't care about the politics and so called rights of any terrorist. Waterboard if necessary, find out exactly what their intentions are and who else may be involved.[/quote]
So what is it ??? Are you saying in your original post
"quote submoa "The connection appears to be obvious to me." & quote submoa "Waterboard if necessary, find out exactly what their intentions are"
These are the opposite ???
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[cool][#0000ff]Just a little hint from the past. The friendly folks who brought us 9/11 left a wide trail of clues as to what they might be capable of. Various agencies had plenty of suspicious information on them well before the fateful attacks. But through poor interagency communication and a reluctance to "assume" anything negative there were no efforts to stop it before it happened. Only after the fact did people come forward saying "Gee...we shoulda done this or we shoulda done that." Too late.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Another hint. There is not only one small cell of radical militants who want to topple the US. Our country is full of them... and they are all around the world...all plotting against us on a daily basis. We have been fortunate to discover and neutralize some of them...but only lucky to survive some of the others because their own plots failed. How many more "nuclear Jockey Shorts" situations is it gonna take?[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]If they launch a hundred attacks, from a hundred different directions, how many have to succeed to make us wake up? We don't live in Kansas any more. We live in the suburbs of Terrorville.[/#0000ff]
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Chopping up a bunch of different paragraphs and putting your own meaning to them out of context is idiocy. You can clearly see I wrote in my second to last post. "I'm not stating waterboard anyone who may or may not have any knowledge of a terrorist act.". I'm not back peddling anywhere. If you want to put blinders over your eyes as to what we're dealing with, that's your business. I will clearly state here or anywhere if asked that if we have a KNOWN terrorist, who is not talking then I believe we should water board him or her if that's what needs to be done to prevent a major terrorist act in our Country. It was used I believe two times and stopped a major act on our soil and abroad. That can't be disputed, it's a fact. Your statements that I think we should waterboard anyone we want is idiocy and it's your words not mine.
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Yes you are correct in fact this isn't Kansas anymore but in reality it never was. We stop terrorism first of all by stopping our own terrorism! We cannot fight terrorism by becoming terrorists. We cannot end terrorism by using the methods of terrorism[font "Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2].
[/size][/font]The being said after the 9/11 attacks its was said
"We will not allow this enemy to win the war by changing our way of life"
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[/size][/font][font "Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size 2][/size][/font]
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So you feel we're terrorists?
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[quote submoa]Chopping up a bunch of different paragraphs and putting your own meaning to them out of context is idiocy. [/quote]
Whaat I got laugh that is what you posted verbatim
[quote submoa]I don't care about the politics and so called rights of any terrorist. Water-board if necessary, find out exactly what their intentions are[/quote]
So again what fact or crime have these people been convicted of other then breaking into a courts house. See here lies the moral dilemma. Are you in fact 100% sure these guys are terrorists ? Do you torture / water-board another human being just to obtain intel that may not even be valid.
[quote submoa]
I'm not back peddling anywhere. If you want to put blinders over your eyes as to what we're dealing with, that's your business.[/quote]
Blinders some of us are more educated on the matter than we would like to be its the simple fact that some are ignorant to the full subject matter too quickly pass judgment that may lead to another humans beings disposal only to the tune of " It doesn't effect me what do I care"
[quote submoa]I think we should water-board anyone we want is idiocy and it's your words not mine.[/quote]
Those were your words own up to them the again the point being who determines when its necessary to water-board people.
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[quote submoa]So you feel we're terrorists?[/quote]
Did you even understand that statement before you posted this ?
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Waterboarding is not torture.
So let me ask you this, if your family were to be killed and you knew the guy who has the information to prevent it from happening is in your custody. Will you waterboard this person?
Hypocrisy can easily result in this answer. Maybe it's not your family who a person the military, alphabet agency, or whoever has in custody, but it is someone's family member. When it's not so personal it's a lot easier to answer isn't it?
Your allegations that I'm saying, waterboard anyone and everyone is not what I stated or portrayed.
As for how educated you are on this subject, maybe you know a lot? It sounds to me like you know exactly what I meant and are trying to twist words into what you would like to hear. Perception can be difficult in a typed message I understand.
As for me, I did 10 years in the military so I don't consider myself naive whatsoever when it comes to what is going on in the world.
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Yes I did, I was merely taking exactly what you wrote which surely has to be perceived exactly as you wrote it which simply states you just called us terrorists. I know that's not what you meant. Its pretty obvious you are doing the same thing.
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[quote submoa]Waterboarding is not torture. [/quote]
WHAT ? Let see if im understanding you correctly. You honestly believe water-boarding is not torture ????
[quote submoa]Hypocrisy can easily result in this answer. Maybe it's not your family who a person the military, alphabet agency, or whoever has in custody, but it is someone's family member. When it's not so personal it's a lot easier to answer isn't it? [/quote]
The Hypocrisy lies then one states to waterboard when necessary but aren't all subject to liberty and justice for all
[quote submoa]Trying to twist words into what you would like to hear. Perception can be difficult in a typed message I understand. [/quote]
I re-posted your original comment VERBATIM how did I twist your words ?
[quote submoa] so I don't consider myself naive whatsoever when it comes to what is going on in the world.[/quote]
Understood
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Answer the question................
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If your family members die unless we get intelligence from a guy in custody they know has it. How do you go about this? Are you the one person in the world who wouldn't do anything to keep his family safe? You're a hypocrite if you would I'd say.
This is no joke, biological, nuclear, chemical weapons, scary stuff. If the guy is a terrorist and you've used every other method then take off the gloves, grab a board and some water and save some Americans.
If they have the intelligence on those people which indicates there will be a terrorist act in our Country and you don't do what ever is necessary to prevent it, I thank God you're not making those decisions.
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Really hypotheticals ?
What if giant mechanical aliens from the planet uransus landed on the planet and there was a threat to blow up every dam but at the same time might be here to help us from the other giant mechanical aliens. Would you find it necessary to waterboard them ?
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lol its not torture
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Maybe there different forms of water-boarding I cant say I ever been water-boarded but :
Wikipedia:
Waterboarding is a form of torture in which water is poured over the face of an immobilized captive, thus causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning.
Waterboarding dates at least to the Spanish Inquisition, when it was known as the tormenta de toca. It has been used by some of the most cruel dictatorships in modern times, including the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. In some versions of the technique, prisoners are strapped to a board, their faces covered with cloth or cellophane, and water is poured over their mouths to stimulate drowning; in others, they are dunked head-first into water.
Its use was first documented in the 14th century, according to Ed Peters, a historian at the University of Pennsylvania. It was known variously as "water torture,"
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