To spear...or not to spear?

[TubeDude]

[#0000FF]Hey folks, I just got some info from Drew Cushing, the warm water honcho at DWR. We have been carrying on a discussion about the spearfishing situation in Utah and he has recently concluded some research on how other states handle fresh water spear fishing.

I encourage all who have opinions or feelings on the subject to show up at the RAC meetings. Drew has been advised that there will be a contingent of spear fishing folks who will lobby for more liberal regulations. I encourage keeping your anglers' side input calm, rational and objective. There are likely to be strong presentations on both sides of the ledger but we need to maintain the high ground.

As I expressed to Drew, it seems that many anglers are opposed to spear fishing mainly from the standpoint that it kills big fish and removes them from the lakes...and the angler never has another shot at them. No catch and release in spear fishing.

Utah is one of very few states that allow spear fishing for game-fish species. Many states do not allow fresh water spear fishing at all. Still others are in the middle by allowing spear fishermen to kill only nongame species such as carp.

Here is the breakdown supplied by Drew:

[/#0000FF] We are already one of the most liberal states and I would like to move forward only when the evaluation and review of the benefits and detrimental effects have been weighed for the fishery and fish species in question. I listed the nationwide regulations below. The missing states don't mention spearfishing at all which could mean they implicitly prohibit it or implicitly allow it.

6 States have explicit prohibitions on spearfishing statewide

31 States allow spearfishing on non-game fish only

1 State allows spearfishing for non-game fish species but only with a special license

5 States allow spearfishing for selected game and non-game fish on selected waters (including Utah)
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[RockyRaab]

I'd recommend they require a special license in addition to the regular fishing license, for the purpose of determining how many spearfishermen there actually are. It could even be a no-cost tag, but it would be mandatory.

Based on the number of licenses issued, it would be much easier to determine if there need to be any other changes. It may not be worth messing with - or it could be a serious issue.
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[Therapist]

My personnel belief is that it has the potential to damage a fishery. There is a guy at Deer Creek who consistently spears 3-4lb smallmouth and 8+ lb walleye. I have seldom seen him spear a trout. I have not read the regulations on spear fishing, but I have no problem with him taking some of the smaller SMB or Walleye, but they seem to target the biggest fish they can find.

The problems that they caused at Fish Lake I believe are typical of the sport. In the ocean there are rules that prevent them from targeting the biggest fish. They have slot limits. Our problem is that we just don't have the recruitment to replace these fish with drought, dropping water levels, poor spawns, etc. I just don't feel that our fisheries can support the sport.

I am a big NO voter on this !!!!

[fsh4fun05]

I've never been fully opposed to spear fishing. I don't approve of it but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to try it. I would selectively harvest bass if a population needed it but I would like to see it as a 'as needed' basis. I'd rather see spear fisherman harvest non-game species as a general rule with certain lakes as an exception for a certain time, for a certain species within a certain size.
Is this asking too much?
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[Fishsticker]

I am sure this will be another spirited conversation. I am awfully glad spearfishing isn't nearly as easy as many believe or everyone would do it. It would be interesting to know how many people spearfish in utah.
Please allow me to share an average day spearfishing for me. I will use my last experience at Starvation.
1. Show up at lake and find an area with no boats or shore fishermen so as not to cause any issues
2. Suit up and hit the water
3. Make between 50 and 100 dives holding my breath and diving between 15&45 feet with visibility ranging from 3-5 feet
4. At least once per trip dive or swim to avoid skier or troller who doesn't know or care what a dive flag is
5. Swim to shore on multiple occasion to allow fishermen to "fish through" exchanging pleasantries and giving them the new anchor I pulled up from the bottom.
6. Kill between 10&50 carp and turn them to crawdad food
7. After hours of straining my eyes in dirty water harvest one 11" bass and one 3.5# walleye for two divers
I have had more successful and less successful days than this but this is fairly average. I am able to harvest many, many more fish with rod and reel than with speargun.
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[lovetofish]

Size restrictions on game fish and no restrictions on non-game fish.

Limits the same as regular fishing limits.
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[MasterDaad]

I'm also curious to learn how much of a threat to trophy fish spearing represents -- and to which waters.

I'm all for spearing carp.
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[doggonefishin]

I'll sit out the debate portion if this but I would like to ask a question of you as a spear enthusiast. The DWR is wanting to use spearfishermen to harvest illegally introduced smallmouth bass from a couple of lakes that have largemouths as the dominant/desired bass. How easy is it for the average spearfisherman to tell the difference between the two species when underwater? Particularly, when it seems that a significant portion of hook and line anglers have trouble telling the difference between LMB and SMB when they catch one conventionally?

I like the idea if the spear guys can tell the difference, but I have concerns that they won't be able to accurately tell the difference in dim light or other conditions and a bunch of LMB will be accidentally shot.
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[Fishsticker]

I can only speak for myself, I have no difficulty telling the difference. The line down a largemouth is unmistakeable.
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[dubob]

[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]I'm with Rocky on this one. I think the DWR needs to require that all spearfishing folks have a special tag to participate in the sport. I think the tag should be free but required. The purpose would be to accurately determine the actual number of folks participating in this activity. I would also suggest that at the end of each year (December time frame) a survey questionnaire should be sent to each and every permit holder for a report on the number of days participating and total species collected. This would go a long way towards determining if their is, or is not, a major problem with or impact on sport fishing with hook & line in Utah.[/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]I've been fishing in Utah since I moved here in 1977. In all those years, I have never seen anyone spearfishing in Utah. From that perspective, I don't believe we have a problem with allowing it, but do feel that we currently don't have enough accurate data on the level of activity to make informed decisions on the activity.[/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]I'm not active anymore, but started scuba diving at age 20. I've spear fished many times in salt water and found it to be a very challenging and satisfying activity. I have absolutely no problem with allowing it in Utah waters. We have absolutely billions of fish in our state waters and spearfishing is not having a measurable impact on the overall population - IMHO.[/#800000][/font]
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[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000]But again, we could probably stand to collect and use more accurate data.[/#800000][/font]
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[SBennett]

I am not a spearo and hate to see big game fish with big holes punched through them but we need spearfisherman as much as they need us.
I believe all spearfisherman should be required to obtain a COR (they are free) for data collecting purposes. MAYBE they will see the writing on the wall that the 31 other states saw and they will better police themselves when it comes to shooting big game fish.
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[PBH]

[quote doggonefishin]How easy is it for the average spearfisherman to tell the difference between the two species when underwater?[/quote]

[quote Fishsticker]I can only speak for myself, I have no difficulty telling the difference. The line down a largemouth is unmistakeable.[/quote]

I have no reason to doubt Fishsticker. However, there is still an issue with enforcement of regulations. How in the world is anything enforced for spearfishermen? I hate to say that anyone is dishonest, but what happens when a mistake is made? Everyone makes mistakes with fish identification -- yes, even myself once in a while -- so what happens when a mistake is made by a spearfisherman and he pulls the trigger only to find out that he mistakenly shot the wrong species? Does that spearfishermen bring that fish to the surface, then turn himself in for a citation? Maybe. I hope so. But my gut says that many people may not. They might just sink the fish because there really isn't any way that someone is going to find out that they made a mistake.


This is the issue that concerns me. Spearfishermen really are on their honor.


I think that the recommendation to have spearfishermen register with the state is a pretty good idea.
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[mtncat1]

I'm neutral on this subject, but with all fishing regs it almost all pretty much up to the fisherman's honor.the there just is to many anglers and to much water and isolation to police everybody. I think that's why they try to educate more than enforce.
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[gmwahl]

I'm all for spear fishing. The limits and size restrictions are the same and so few people are spear fishing that I can't imagine that very many fish are getting shot. Even if a spear fisherman is shooting a couple big fish on each trip I think it's fine.

There seems to be a feeling of "it's not fair to the rest of us" that has taken hold in some anglers or the feeling that any decent fish harvested is a waste and there is one less fish for them to catch. To this I cry BS. How many large fish are going home with folks that don't report them here on BFT? We on this forum are a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the anglers in the state, yet we seem to think that we are the active, know everything, policy affecting group that makes the biggest difference in the state when it comes to figuring out the fish management plans and strategies. I have read multiple gripes on here by a semi-illiterate sounding fisherman that the reason Jordanelle or other smallmouth bass waters haven't been providing him with a boat full of trophy bass on each outing is because of spear fisherman shooting all the big bass. How asinine is that?!

I have only seen spear fisherman a few times while fishing and have yet to see more than one fish killed by a spear fisherman, yet I have seen waves upon waves of anglers walking back to their vehicles with stringers or buckets full of large game fish. These anglers have obviously impacted the larger fish population way more than the few spear fisherman that may have had a go at the fish yet there are still plenty of nice fish to be caught. I promise you that I have a better chance of coming home with a limit of large bass or any other kind of game fish than a spear fisherman does. Most fisherman think that if they aren't catching a bunch of big fish that something besides their skills need fixing or the fish aren't there! I've seen tons of big browns cruising tibble fork on the back side of the lake, but I have yet to catch one! Must be something besides me at fault!(sarcasm here). The big ones are there, but they are big for a reason and they will flee a diver just as quickly as anything else. Though I have never tried spear fishing, I have done a lot of snorkeling and diving just to scope out fish and I can testify that they don't usually just let you swim up and shake hands, and to shoot a fish, I'm sure you would need to be within a few feet.

I agree with a free spear fishing tag if that's what the state wants to do to be able to use as a survey tool for collecting data, but I'm afraid that the data collected will only fall on deaf ears. Those that oppose it do so because they just want to oppose it and not because of any empirical data that has been gathered to prove their viewpoints. We need to look at this from a logical, numerical standpoint and not an emotional fish hugger viewpoint. If those that oppose spear fishing can put a hold on it just because they think it's unethical then what's next? No bait any where? No treble hooks? No barbs on hooks? No keeping fish? Or even, God forbid, no hunting other animals because we can't release them after we shoot them?

My opinion is for spear fishers to have their fun and I hope they all enjoy success at it because for every fish they shoot, they earned it!
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[gonfishn]

I agree with the idea of registering and collecting more data. But I question the effectiveness of "slot limits" or size restrictions. This is much easier to accomplish with hook and line. You can actually measure the fish and then release it if it is not within the legal size range. Not so easy for a spear fisherman. I would also be very concerned about the situation above about big lake trout being harvested as they move in shallow to spawn. I think details like this need to be looked at very carefully and have "closed season" time periods to protect large spawning fish.
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[DeadI]

I had my first spear fishing experience on wed. and I can tell you this, that it is not an easy sport. It is a lot easier to go catch one on my pole. Fish do not like to sit there as your swimming around. The visiblitly is not great, and they are just plan hard to hit. The group of seven people that I went with we took 9 fish total. All were with in legal limits and all will be enjoyed on the table.

I to have been fishing for near 20 years and have only seen spear fishers once in that time (not including our group wed.) There are simply not as many in the sport as there are anglers. Not to mention it is an expensive sport. Your not going to go every weekend. But angling, crap there are some weeks especially in the fall that I may go out 2 or three times.

There are certain waters in the state already that your not allowed to spear for game fish. And in a case like fishlake there is a season that you can do it. Thus protecting those spawning time periods.

My feeling is that spearfishing is not hurting the fisheries.
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[LOAH]

Well thought-out and put together.

I have very little opinion on the matter, but I appreciate when people take the time to think about what they're about to say, then say it.

Personally, I can see that spear fishing could dramatically affect smaller waters, but like gmwahl and others have pointed out, anglers can do just the same or worse.

I know if I were to go under with a spear gun, I'd certainly be on the lookout for big fish. Absolutely. I like big fish and prefer to eat something with some meat on its frame.

Sure, there should be some measures taken to protect a sensitive species or a sensitive time for some species. Just as they do with our native cutthroat, steps likely should be taken.

In the end, we all need to share the water. We don't have to like each other, but it's here for all of us, so we might as well grin and bear it.

I know I grimace every time I get bounced by a wake or when someone fishes right next to me, but I don't want new legislation molded exclusively for my preferred usage of public water.

I'll be fine whether spear fishing is left alone or heavily regulated.
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[Therapist]

Here is the problem. I cannot tell you the last time I kept a SMB over 12 inches in length. If I caught a 4+, I would possibly keep it and have it mounted, but anything over 12 inches is released. I do keep limits of 10-12 inch SMB. Same with Walleye, I will keep one up to 4lbs, but anything over that gets released, after a pic. Again, if I caught a 12+ walleye, I might mount it.

That SMB that DeadI speared would look nice on the wall, but I have doubts about it being mounted. Therein is the problem with spearfishing, you can't release the bigger ones back into the water.

This problem was addressed at FG in the heyday of the big Lake Trout. To many of the big fish were being kept until anglers finally realized that they were shooting themselves in the foot. Wanted one for the wall, fine, but you then released the rest. If you wanted one to eat, you kept one of the 4-10lb pups.

Selective Harvest, so now that you have your wall hanger, leave the bigger fish alone and take the smaller ones for the table. By the way, most people who intend to put one on the wall better get an idea of the cost before you shoot one, it is not cheap.

[MSM1970]

After reading all of the comments that this spear fishing thing has created, it seems to me like it's about fairness and advantages. Well as a bank tangler here's what I have to say about the topic.. All you guys who have boats and can get out and access any part of the water that you want are taking a huge advantage over me with your fancy fish finders and what not. I think that if you want to fish from a boat you should be required to drag a net over to where im fishing so that I can have the same chance at catching the fish that you guys have access too. I dont know how to implement or even enforce this but something needs to be done not only for me but for the rest of the underprivlaged bank fishermen. If anyone wants to hear my ideas on big game hunting just let me know. I've got some real ground breaking ideas!!! Thanks, Brian.
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[Fishsticker]

I'm with LOAH, I only want to shoot the big ones. I am sorry if these pictures offend anyone that doesn't want to see mature breeding fish killed.[:p]
21#21#and 30+
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