(06-13-2020, 05:16 PM)RonPaulFan Wrote: My thinking on our public lands is it is already ours and ours to use. Combine that with the understanding that the power to tax is the power to destroy. Essentially the "fees" are taxing us for what we already own as if government owns what is public land and is "selling us" the use of what is already ours by means of abuse of power. Listen to the audio file where they tell us how good a deal it is for $150 to use the parks. Sure, our parks are an amazing wonder of our Creator's creation, but government didn't create them. The parks are already ours! We own them. A theme is pervasive throughout: "The operating structure has changed from a typical government service to a business-like model ..." (first sentence of their "Agency Explanation" as quoted from the full text above). It is NOT business! A business would own something and charge us to use it or charge us to buy it. State Parks are already ours. Their "business model" is raising taxes to pay for more services and more government (businesses expand) as if they are selling us something. But, we aren't going there because of their services. Instead, we are tolerating fees to use what is already ours and we go to our parks to get away and not to have even more government in our lives. Once they have a high price "service" they prohibit alternatives to force paying for their monopoly by forcing concentration of camping into a small area and closing the rest. I commented similarly in this article (click comments to open and see two from me using my name, Ronald Levine): https://www.ksl.com/article/46764153/cam...is-it-safe
Further, they intend to compete with free enterprise saying "it takes money to make money (audio file linked in my above post)," but that money comes from us. Listening to the audio file, they are sounding like salespeople selling us a product. Regarding business, our State Parks and our recreation using them is huge boon business and our Utah economy, but consider the power to tax is the power to destroy. Sure, government might technically "make money" competing with private business with us paying them to do that with increased fees, but the real cost is multiplied by the harm to this sector of Utah economy by creating a disincentive to use our State Parks by creating a drain on the very thing that supports a robust recreational economy. That would reduce our very much larger private economy with less use of our public lands all so government can "profit" to support it's growth and intrusion into what is already ours with use as a monopoly as if they own public lands. If these government bureaucrats want to "make money" in business, they should quit their jobs working for us as public servants and invest their own money into their own private businesses.
Related posts with our discussions on cost:
(In these I comment on the high cost of camping at Sand Hollow and the monopolistic and punitive ways they use to force us to use their high-cost crowded camping when primitive camping away from things and without fees of nearly the price of motel in a city is more desirable. It interferes with the real camping experience I and many others want.)
https://bigfishtackle.com/forum/showthre...+hollow%22
https://bigfishtackle.com/forum/showthre...+hollow%22
https://bigfishtackle.com/forum/showthre...+hollow%22
https://bigfishtackle.com/forum/showthre...ght=hollow
Couldn't agree with you more Ronald! I expect soon that the State will follow the Federal government in selling out our public lands as they have done with many public use areas like Strawberry for one example. Farming out the management of the camp grounds to private companies with a guaranteed profit margin for something that the tax payer made all the investment in. They come in like Recreation Utah (which is really a Califormia outfit) and jack up all the prices but refuse to invest any money in maintaining the facility.
The bureaucrats think they own our public lands now and they are nothing but an inconvenience for them or a way for them to pad their resume for a move to the private sector after showing how successful they were at turning our public lands into a for profit entity.
(06-14-2020, 03:23 PM)dubob Wrote: RPF,
Public land refers to the public domain, unappropriated land belonging to the Federal government that is subject to sale or other disposal under general laws and is not reserved for any particular governmental or public purpose.
Much of this land was acquired early in the history of the United States as a result of purchases, wars, or treaties made with foreign countries. The Federal government used this land to encourage growth, settlement, and economic development. Land that was not developed, homesteaded, or sold remained in Federal ownership as public land. Today, the Federal government employs principles of land use planning and environmental protection to preserve the natural resources and scenic beauty found on public land.
Each western state also received federal "public land" as trust lands designated for specific beneficiaries, which the States are to manage as a condition to acceptance into the union. Those trust lands cannot any longer be considered public lands as allowing any benefits to the "public" would be in breach of loyalty to the specific beneficiaries. The trust lands (two sections, or about 1,280 acres (5.2 km2) per township) are usually managed extractively (grazing or mining), to provide revenue for public schools
Most, if not all, Utah State Parks facilities are located on Federal government owned property. Willard, Echo, East Canyon, Rockport are a few of these. Utah has negotiated a contract with the Federal government agencies (Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, et al) and pays a fee to the Federal Government to develop and mange the site as a State Park. There are other expenses associated with development & management such as building and maintaining the camping sites (primitive with no amenities & and better sites with different combinations of amenities), launch ramps & parking lots, restrooms with & without water/showers, cabins for non-RV owners, beaches with parking areas, etc, etc, etc. ALL of this costs money and I’m 100% certain that most folks will agree the improved facilities increase almost everybody’s enjoyment of the facility.
And just where does the money for all of this come from? From the Federal government? Not a chance. From wealthy philanthropists? Yeah, right. How about from state tax revenues? Bingo! Been that way from almost day one. Except now, inflation is causing the revenue to lag way behind the real costs of running the state and ALL of it's agency's. And John Q Public does NOT want his tax bill to increase so that all of these inflation increases can be covered. ESPECIALLY, if he doesn’t give a tinker’s damn about outdoor activities like hunting, fishing, camping, etc. So how is the State government going to keep covering the cost to develop and maintain our State Parks?
The State government is already doing it. They are requiring the State Parks to become self sufficient and to pay their own way. Day use fees HAVE to increase to cover the cost of running our State Parks at a level of use that is acceptable to the majority of the users. Contrary to your political leanings, there ain’t no free lunch and there never will be. State Parks are a creation of man, not a natural occurrence. And as such, there is a real dollar cost to their creation and continued existence. Nobody is forcing you to use any State Park or any of the amenities afforded patrons who do. If you don’t like the State Parks fee system, then don’t use any of the State Parks. If it's cheaper for you to stay in a motel to use Sand Hollow State Park, then by all means rent the motel room. See how easy that was?
Utah has an abundance of recreational opportunities that don’t have ANY fees associated with them. Use them instead of the State Parks. The state isn’t forcing anybody to purchase an annual day-use pass to use any of the 44 State Parks they will work in. You can pay as you go and if you only go a couple times a year, you are getting by a lot cheaper. I visit State Parks probably 40 to 50 time a year, so for folks like me, the annual pass makes a lot of sense and is a real bargain.
Go ahead and complain all you want; your reasoning is very weak at best. Self sufficiency is the way of the future. Nobody wants the alternative – tax increases that cover lots of things you (the average Joe Citizen) don’t have a need for or interest in. Deal with it.
You know Bob, I have to strongly disagree with you here. Utah is one of the few states I've been where they have locked up every public water inside a "state park". You have no free use and or access to the public waters in Utah, this is wrong!
Sunrise on the water