12-17-2014, 07:18 PM
[font "Calibri"]I don’t have much of a dog in this debate. I honestly have almost zero desire to access the private forum, aside from a little bit of curiosity to see how different the information provided is. Still, I will comment, as I don’t want to see the activity of the BFT Utah forum diminished. I don’t mean to be condescending in saying that I think it is self-evident why such a forum would not be beneficial to the health of BFT Utah activity. I honestly would be surprised if anyone didn’t get it, but yet sense some don’t – either that or their own personal desires are deemed to be more important, which I take exception with as well. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"]I generally don’t post much in the way of reports. I contribute where I can, when I have some information no one else has yet provided, or I’ve been somewhere recently, or on the rare occasion I might have some insight that others don’t. But I don’t generally like recognition, or being out front . . . I just don’t like attention and shy away from it. So I don’t post many reports because I’m a bit of a different person from many posters in that respect.[/font]
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[font "Calibri"]I get the needs/wants for differing access levels. I implemented and ran a forum system that had open access, member access, and Board of Directors access limited forums. I’ve been involved with sensitive harvestable wildlife information (far more sensitive than fish or big game species), and have seen that misused. I really think I do have at least a rudimentary grasp on some of the needs/wants to restrict information in a forum setting.[/font]
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[font "Calibri"]Given that background, I have a few thoughts on the private forum.[/font]
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[font "Calibri"]I find it a bit ironic that an activity intended to be seen and to get recognition from known and unknown individuals (posting to a public forum – a mild and benign form of bragging to a wide audience) generates any complaints about too many people seeing it! Yes, yes, I understand the vagaries that exist that don’t fit that simplistic mold. But those don’t negate the irony of it. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"]If, in your estimation, a location and pattern, and the resulting catch, are too sensitive to be shared, they are too sensitive to be shared! Period! The scope of the participants doesn’t matter! I’ve had a study site, shared personally with only a very select few individuals, ruined because it was shared with one more person by one member of that select few. Posting to a select group of active participants is in no way protective of the spot. Joe, an active participant with access to the private forum, tells his brother in law, who then slays them, who then posts it to the public forum, or at the minimum, all the people in his private circle, and the location/pattern is announced just as wide despite only posting to the private forum. I’ve seen it happen multiple times. You are fooling yourself if you think that having the protected forum accomplishes the purpose stated, or you know it’s a red herring, but it sounds good.[/font]
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[font "Calibri"]To further build on the likelihood of the above scenario that posting to the private forum doesn’t protect information: Don’t forget, in general, the individuals with the biggest mouths are the very ones in the private forum! Many of the quietest active participants in the public forum are the better secret keepers. Again, if, in your opinion, the details of where/when/what are too sensitive to be shared widely, then they should not be shared at all. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"]For more than 30 years I’ve been aware and observed the ‘progression’ of fishermen from ‘catch anything, any way’, to ‘seeking the biggest/most’, to ‘limiting methods and seeking challenge’, to ‘elitist’ self-image. It is strange how predictable this is in so many people. Certainly not everyone follows this pattern, but so many do. I have a problem with the private forum as it seems to be a continuation and support of this pattern. A pattern of forgetfulness that we all started off somewhere. A pride that somehow the information we readily consumed as nymphs, should now be withheld from other nymphs. It just doesn’t feel right. It’s why, even though I have fly fished for almost 40 years now, I will not call myself a flyfisherman. Too many are elitist snobs that forget their roots.[/font]
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[font "Calibri"]What has made BFT great are people like TD and others who have openly shared. Take that away, and what is left? Just an archive of what used to be great. You might as well just start your own FB or private forum off of BFT for your select group of friends than to divide BFT into areas where information is shared, and information is not shared. I would propose that if there is going to be a private forum, that the metrics to continue maintaining access to that forum include minimum periodic posts in the public areas to 1) reply to newbs or the voluminous request for condition updates, and 2) share techniques or tactics. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"]I don’t think the divide between those that want a private forum, and those that see the pitfalls of such will likely ever agree – except to agree to disagree. For example, I’ll call out FG’s not-to-distant posts about a fly pattern she shared being copied and being called someone else’s creation. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"]In the ‘80s I developed a scud-like pattern one day on the tailgate of the truck when none of the regular patterns were working on the river that day. It was pretty unique. I instantly started catching fish that day and ran back to the truck to make a few more for myself and Dad. That pattern continued to produce on that river for at least two decades for myself and dad while we fished it (I haven’t fished it since the mid ‘90s). Dad and I shared my pattern freely, wanting to see others catch as many fish as we did. After a couple years, we would run into strangers that had and used the pattern, and had no clue that I’m the one that developed it. I’m fine with that. I am happy that I contributed to other’s success and happiness. I continued to do very well using it even when others were using it too. As most seasoned fisherman know, the pattern is only a part of success. FG clearly isn’t fine with an analogous situation at the berry. I don’t think there is much way of reconciling such personal differences of perspective and motivation. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"]The private forum as currently constituted is a mistake. It is catering to a few when the site is maintained and built by and for the masses. If there were concerns about adequate participation in the past, those concerns are likely to grow. If it is significant enough, don’t be surprised if your sponsor cuts off your private club. I know I would if I owned the site. I’d rather pay for elaborate report posts than have such a forum existing on my server.[/font]
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[font "Calibri"]If posters on the general forum are like-happy in this selfie indulgent era, and disappointed at numerous views without many replies, then implement a “thank you” or “like”, and/or “agree” button to the forum system. There are many times I would have liked to say “thanks” for a report, or information, but didn’t feel the need to post a reply just to say “thanks” (yeah, I get the gripes from my wife too on that one). There are ways to solve some issues without creating the new issues of a private forum. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"]Anyway, that’s a few of my thoughts, as well as agreement with many previous points, which I would have clicked “like” or “agree” if the option were there. I could go on for a while, but I think I’ve spent my $0.02 already. [/font]
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[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]I generally don’t post much in the way of reports. I contribute where I can, when I have some information no one else has yet provided, or I’ve been somewhere recently, or on the rare occasion I might have some insight that others don’t. But I don’t generally like recognition, or being out front . . . I just don’t like attention and shy away from it. So I don’t post many reports because I’m a bit of a different person from many posters in that respect.[/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]I get the needs/wants for differing access levels. I implemented and ran a forum system that had open access, member access, and Board of Directors access limited forums. I’ve been involved with sensitive harvestable wildlife information (far more sensitive than fish or big game species), and have seen that misused. I really think I do have at least a rudimentary grasp on some of the needs/wants to restrict information in a forum setting.[/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]Given that background, I have a few thoughts on the private forum.[/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]I find it a bit ironic that an activity intended to be seen and to get recognition from known and unknown individuals (posting to a public forum – a mild and benign form of bragging to a wide audience) generates any complaints about too many people seeing it! Yes, yes, I understand the vagaries that exist that don’t fit that simplistic mold. But those don’t negate the irony of it. [/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]If, in your estimation, a location and pattern, and the resulting catch, are too sensitive to be shared, they are too sensitive to be shared! Period! The scope of the participants doesn’t matter! I’ve had a study site, shared personally with only a very select few individuals, ruined because it was shared with one more person by one member of that select few. Posting to a select group of active participants is in no way protective of the spot. Joe, an active participant with access to the private forum, tells his brother in law, who then slays them, who then posts it to the public forum, or at the minimum, all the people in his private circle, and the location/pattern is announced just as wide despite only posting to the private forum. I’ve seen it happen multiple times. You are fooling yourself if you think that having the protected forum accomplishes the purpose stated, or you know it’s a red herring, but it sounds good.[/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]To further build on the likelihood of the above scenario that posting to the private forum doesn’t protect information: Don’t forget, in general, the individuals with the biggest mouths are the very ones in the private forum! Many of the quietest active participants in the public forum are the better secret keepers. Again, if, in your opinion, the details of where/when/what are too sensitive to be shared widely, then they should not be shared at all. [/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]For more than 30 years I’ve been aware and observed the ‘progression’ of fishermen from ‘catch anything, any way’, to ‘seeking the biggest/most’, to ‘limiting methods and seeking challenge’, to ‘elitist’ self-image. It is strange how predictable this is in so many people. Certainly not everyone follows this pattern, but so many do. I have a problem with the private forum as it seems to be a continuation and support of this pattern. A pattern of forgetfulness that we all started off somewhere. A pride that somehow the information we readily consumed as nymphs, should now be withheld from other nymphs. It just doesn’t feel right. It’s why, even though I have fly fished for almost 40 years now, I will not call myself a flyfisherman. Too many are elitist snobs that forget their roots.[/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]What has made BFT great are people like TD and others who have openly shared. Take that away, and what is left? Just an archive of what used to be great. You might as well just start your own FB or private forum off of BFT for your select group of friends than to divide BFT into areas where information is shared, and information is not shared. I would propose that if there is going to be a private forum, that the metrics to continue maintaining access to that forum include minimum periodic posts in the public areas to 1) reply to newbs or the voluminous request for condition updates, and 2) share techniques or tactics. [/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]I don’t think the divide between those that want a private forum, and those that see the pitfalls of such will likely ever agree – except to agree to disagree. For example, I’ll call out FG’s not-to-distant posts about a fly pattern she shared being copied and being called someone else’s creation. [/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]In the ‘80s I developed a scud-like pattern one day on the tailgate of the truck when none of the regular patterns were working on the river that day. It was pretty unique. I instantly started catching fish that day and ran back to the truck to make a few more for myself and Dad. That pattern continued to produce on that river for at least two decades for myself and dad while we fished it (I haven’t fished it since the mid ‘90s). Dad and I shared my pattern freely, wanting to see others catch as many fish as we did. After a couple years, we would run into strangers that had and used the pattern, and had no clue that I’m the one that developed it. I’m fine with that. I am happy that I contributed to other’s success and happiness. I continued to do very well using it even when others were using it too. As most seasoned fisherman know, the pattern is only a part of success. FG clearly isn’t fine with an analogous situation at the berry. I don’t think there is much way of reconciling such personal differences of perspective and motivation. [/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]The private forum as currently constituted is a mistake. It is catering to a few when the site is maintained and built by and for the masses. If there were concerns about adequate participation in the past, those concerns are likely to grow. If it is significant enough, don’t be surprised if your sponsor cuts off your private club. I know I would if I owned the site. I’d rather pay for elaborate report posts than have such a forum existing on my server.[/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]If posters on the general forum are like-happy in this selfie indulgent era, and disappointed at numerous views without many replies, then implement a “thank you” or “like”, and/or “agree” button to the forum system. There are many times I would have liked to say “thanks” for a report, or information, but didn’t feel the need to post a reply just to say “thanks” (yeah, I get the gripes from my wife too on that one). There are ways to solve some issues without creating the new issues of a private forum. [/font]
[font "Calibri"][/font]
[font "Calibri"]Anyway, that’s a few of my thoughts, as well as agreement with many previous points, which I would have clicked “like” or “agree” if the option were there. I could go on for a while, but I think I’ve spent my $0.02 already. [/font]
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