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[quote Charina][quote wormandbobber]The problem with moderators--like the one you used to be--is that they don't like discord or disagreement. But disagreement is inevitable on forums where the questioning of reasoning behind decision making and those who make decisions are allowed
. . .
I am also glad that you are no longer a moderator...you were one of those overzealous ones![/quote]
It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. And in such a an environment without the personal attacks (such as this thread is tending towards already), voices are not "shut down", and the discussion can be much more robust. But personal attacks like you display do nothing to further what you purport to engender.[/quote]
Where is the personal attack? The man did not attack Pat, he has an opinion of Pat and is glad that he is no longer a mod. I think he is entitled to that opinion. Me, I like Pat, but I don't see where he was personally attacked.
Not like wormandbobber called him any foul names, questioned his sexuality or ethnic background.
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That is what is so bad about edited and deleted posts and threads...not only do moderators have a difficult time balancing when and/or if something needs to be edited (editing or deleting a post, for example, simply because a moderator thinks it is "dumb" probably goes too far), but they also are not consistent in how things are moderated similarly to how charina recognized my post as a personal attack and not pat's (kind of like being disagreeable and not just disagreeing). Like was mentioned, I attacked Tubedude no more than he attacked me...
...I believe that if you were to go back and look at the most viewed threads on this site, you would find that most revolve around disagreements. And, I would also bet that more learning takes place because of some of those disagreements than in any other types of threads (I, for example, learned quite a bit about WD-40 and fishing in a recent debate where Gemcityslayer personally attacked those who use the substance as bait). But, that is my subjective opinion....
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And the wheels on the bus go round and round. [fishin]
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Live to hunt----- Hunt to live.
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round and round[sly]...... crazy
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[quote wormandbobber]Sometimes overzealous and empowered mods should just back off instead of jumping the gun and editing posts...many times what a mod thinks is an insult or an attack is really just ribbing. If mods were to just back off, I bet they would find that most threads wouldn't get too out of hand...
...the problem as I see it is that mods aren't striking a balance. Sometimes, they need to sit back and watch things with a little sense of humor![/quote]
Well, in the forum guidelines I found this:
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[#4040ff]PERSONAL ATTACKS:[/#4040ff]
[#4040ff]In most cases, moderators will not interfere in good natured ribbing or mild bantering. However, some members are more sensitive than others. Posts that offend any other member may become subject to moderating action…editing or deleting. Members who establish a pattern of frequently and openly challenging, heckling or berating other members will have their posting privileges curtailed.
---------------------
[/#4040ff]
The bottom line is that it is up to the moderator to decide what is friendly ribbing and what is an insult, attack or harassment. It's not up to you. It's up to them. They are the judge of it, not you. That's just a fact and part of being involved in a forum like this. I completely disagree with you that if the mods backed off, things would be fine. I think they have tried that approach and it patently does not work... the only way to stop the childish back and forth and "ribbing" is to proactively stop it, every time it happens.
This isn't a forum for "humor" This is a fishing forum.
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[quote TubeDude][quote wormandbobber]Sometimes overzealous and empowered mods should just back off instead of jumping the gun and editing posts...many times what a mod thinks is an insult or an attack is really just ribbing. If mods were to just back off, I bet they would find that most threads wouldn't get too out of hand...
...the problem as I see it is that mods aren't striking a balance. Sometimes, they need to sit back and watch things with a little sense of humor![/quote]
[cool][#0000ff]Not a surprising stand from someone who has a long tradition of pot-stirring and heated (pointless) debate on overworked subjects on this forum. You and your brother have been the cause of several formerly valued BFT members leaving the forum. And you were also successful in harassing me to the point that I gave up being a moderator on this board.
It sometimes seems as if you wait until someone else expresses an opinion and then you jump in with an opposing view...regardless of what you really believe. You just live for the action.
The number of useful contributory posts you have made are far outnumbered by your controversial posts.
My sympathies to the current moderators. Glad I am no longer responsible for dealing with guys like you and your brother.
[/#0000ff][/quote]
+1
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There's been plenty of "healthy" debates. And threads that went on (and on and on) - a recent one dragged on past the 100 reply mark even.
But - if people can agree to disagree without getting personal, or flipping the 4-letter collection - it can carry on.
Typically any post that is HOT with lots of replies tends to be one that needs "watching"
As stated - what you users see is often not the whole story. And the mods do send PMs or submit public floggings sometimes.
There is a [url "http://www.bigfishtackle.com/forum/gforum.cgi?forum=324"]Rough and Rowdy[/url] site on the forum which is loosly moderated, if at all. I'm sure Curt can hook you up. Go gutpile all you want there.
And I disagree - anytime I see a DWR post getting ripped - I'll say something, or edit. We're lucky to have contributions from the pros, and ought to respect that.
I've also seen a lot (public and private) rips on mods.
Guess how much we get paid to be a mod? Nope - less than that. Anyone who chooses to attack a mod, will likely find an edit, and nasty gram, and maybe a ban.
I know I cross the border sometimes, and my sense of sensibility is a bit looser than some other mods. I guess I figure if the FTC and the Disney channel allow the phrase or word - we should too.
But that's not always the case, and "intent" has a large role.
Debate and argue all you want. There are trigger topics that will ALWAYS spark a disagreement. But don't get nasty, don't get personal, voice you opinion ALL you want, just don't expect to demand that everyone agree with it.
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[quote wormandbobber]That is what is so bad about edited and deleted posts and threads...not only do moderators have a difficult time balancing when and/or if something needs to be edited (editing or deleting a post, for example, simply because a moderator thinks it is "dumb" probably goes too far), but they also are not consistent in how things are moderated similarly to how charina recognized my post as a personal attack and not pat's (kind of like being disagreeable and not just disagreeing). Like was mentioned, I attacked Tubedude no more than he attacked me...
...I believe that if you were to go back and look at the most viewed threads on this site, you would find that most revolve around disagreements. And, I would also bet that more learning takes place because of some of those disagreements than in any other types of threads (I, for example, learned quite a bit about WD-40 and fishing in a recent debate where Gemcityslayer personally attacked those who use the substance as bait). But, that is my subjective opinion....[/quote]
Disagreement is not the reason why any post gets locked. If you carefully read through the forum guidelines, there is nothing in there that says disagreement cannot be had here. You have to be kidding if you really think that, there is all sorts of arguing and disagreement that takes place on here. Like I said, if you read the guidelines, the only time a moderator can edit or delete or lock a post, is when it breaks the forum guidelines: Instances include, insulting other members, getting off topic, not respecting the hotspot rule, etc, etc.
I think the vast majority of the time the moderators are acting justly and addressing something that is clearly written in the forum guidelines. If you don't understand how the system works and what the rules are, please just read the guidelines again.
There are rules and the moderators are allowed to enforce them. I don't see how whining about that fact is going to change anything.
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[quote CoyoteSpinner]
Debate and argue all you want. There are trigger topics that will ALWAYS spark a disagreement. But don't get nasty, don't get personal, voice you opinion ALL you want, just don't expect to demand that everyone agree with it.[/quote]
Well put Yote'
[#ff0000]Now, everyone take their Prozac and get back in lockstep!!!![/#ff0000]
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Having been on both sides of the table and as mentioned, a Moderator a several other forums, I do agree that certain sites on BFT are over moderated. I have even confronted them in civil PM's.
Watching the news this morning referring to the Police taking on a Military attitude, I do agree the same has happened on several occasions here.
Posts have been locked because the Moderator "predicted" it going south, before it ever did. Plus judgments made on people before it happens.
I to agree in a little good spirited debating. Would really like to see more to be honest. Both sides of the coin.
TD and I have butt heads, but I still respect him. I don't agree with everything, but that is good, in my eyes. Both sides of the coin.
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[quote Gemcityslayer]
I think the vast majority of the time the moderators are acting justly and addressing something that is clearly written in the forum guidelines. If you don't understand how the system works and what the rules are, please just read the guidelines again.[/quote]
I think so too; however, there are instances when forum moderators have and do edit posts and ban members when these members did NOT break forum rules and did not deserve to be banned. That is what bothers me...
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[quote wormandbobber]
The reality is that you and other moderators have always been too quick to delete/edit posts and way too quick banning people on this site. I have long felt that this site would be much better if debates were allowed to be played out and often posts are edited that really shouldn't be (editing a post, for example, that you simply think is "dumb" is probably overstepping what your designed post is supposed to do or be). I liken the moderators over here to the cop who just itches to write tickets--sure, they have the right and power to do so, but sometimes their decisions are made simply because they have the power instead of on common sense and logic. Some of the more recent "moderations" to threads have been nothing short of silly and/or dumb...!
And, for saying so....I might be edited and banned! Because, heaven knows, you don't question moderators over here...!
[/quote]
[#000080]You are right. When a moderator edits a post, and then the member goes right back in and edits his post and puts the link, that the moderator deleted, back in his post, the moderator should just send a PM saying, "Naughty, naughty, please don't do that." Then after being banned for only a brief time, the member immediately signs up under a new username and starts another thread, that he knows will be a controversial thread (And also, the position he takes in his post is 100% contrary to his personal beliefs and knowledge.). The moderator should just send another PM and say, "Thank you for making my life hell, I really appreciate it. Will you please continue doing "dumb" things that will cause us unpaid moderators more problems to deal with and drive away even more contributing members."
You are 100% spot on, we do it just to feel the power of the position and also we also have big egos that have to be regularly fed! I am truly impressed that you figured this out.[/#000080]
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[quote wormandbobber][quote Gemcityslayer]
I think the vast majority of the time the moderators are acting justly and addressing something that is clearly written in the forum guidelines. If you don't understand how the system works and what the rules are, please just read the guidelines again.[/quote]
I think so too; however, there are instances when forum moderators have and do edit posts and ban members when these members did NOT break forum rules and did not deserve to be banned. That is what bothers me...[/quote]
Point it out then, give us a specific case? I don't really see that happening here. What I see is the same members stirring the pot and agitating others, or the same members taking topics off-topic.
If you post something that is off-topic and does not pertain to the original post (fishing) then the moderators have the right to edit/delete your post. That's the rule, if you don't like it, too bad?
Not to be harsh, but like I have said... I think your problem is that you won't just accept the fact that it is not up to you. It's up to the moderators. They pull the strings, they make the decisions... if you don't like them... too bad. Plain and simple.
Directly from the forum guidelines: "..[#4040ff]moderators are empowered to edit, delete or move posts…using moderator discretion. They also have the power to ban individual members who openly and wantonly violate BFT Utah guidelines."
[/#4040ff]
Why are you surprised that they are doing exactly what they have the power to do?
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Kent....what were the responses to that post? Were they negative? Or, were they positive? Did that post ever personally attack anyone? That post put up a funny video that did NOT break any rules...again, you deleted it because you--in your infinite wisdom--thought it was "dumb"...your words, not mine!
My point is that moderators sometimes go too far...in this case, you obviously did. Now, his reactions may have gone too far as well, but YOU are the one that triggered that reaction by editing something that did NOT need to be edited. Had the original poster come back  or upset, then and maybe then should you have done something...but, again, you acted too soon!
All I am asking/saying is that moderators should NOT act so quickly and overmoderate...in my opinion, that is what you have done! And, based on some of the other replies, others feel the same.
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If you don't brake the law the cops don't give you tickets...
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[quote bassrods]If you don't brake the law the cops don't give you tickets...[/quote]
But they can horas you, because they THINK you have committed a crime.[  ]
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[quote wormandbobber]
...Did that post ever personally attack anyone? That post put up a funny video that did NOT break any rules...again, you deleted it because you--in your infinite wisdom--thought it was "dumb"...your words, not mine!
[/quote]
[#4040ff] "PERSONAL ATTACKS:[/#4040ff]
[#4040ff]In most cases, moderators will not interfere in good natured ribbing or mild bantering. However, some members are more sensitive than others. Posts that offend any other member may become subject to moderating action…editing or deleting. Members who establish a pattern of frequently and openly challenging, heckling or berating other members will have their posting privileges curtailed."
[#BF0000]I have a hunch that most people are offended to be called dumb for making a post. Just because the attached video was funny doesn't change the situation.[/#BF0000]
[/#4040ff]
[quote wormandbobber]
My point is that moderators sometimes go too far...in this case, you obviously did. Now, his reactions may have gone too far as well, but YOU are the one that triggered that reaction by editing something that did NOT need to be edited. Had the original poster come back or upset, then and maybe then should you have done something...but, again, you acted too soon!
[/quote]
[#800000]You are right, because in his and your opinion I went too far that excuses all of his actions. That excuse always justifies everything. You are right, moderators should always wait to see if the person shows that he is offended before the moderator takes any action. Of course we don't have anything else to do (like try to earn a living for example) than to keep coming back on BFT and seeing if the person has shown any sign that they are offended yet). Yep, that type of moderating would encourage more members to join and to make posts. Thanks for clearing all of this up for us.[/#800000]
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[quote bassrods]If you don't brake the law the cops don't give you tickets...[/quote]
The Grammar Police can.[:p]
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[quote remo_5_0][quote bassrods]If you don't brake the law the cops don't give you tickets...[/quote]
The Grammar Police can.[:p][/quote]
They would surely be busier than a one legged man in an a** kicking contest if they really tried.
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[quote petty4life]Could you post some pic of naked women? [cool][:p][/quote]
LIKE [ ]
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Pack it in
PACK IT OUT !
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