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[#0000FF]Had an inquiry on the board about where the carp removal program stood...as far as how many have been removed and how long it was going to go on. I addressed that to Sam Braegger at the Utah Lake Commission. Here is his reply:[/#0000FF]
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As to your question, the most recent information we have is that the funding for intensive removal of the carp will be ending in the next month or so. During this spring, after that contract ends, there will be a new contract for what's being referenced as a "maintenance removal" level. This will be a goal of 1 million pounds of carp a year, versus the previous goal was 3-4 million pounds a year. The JSRIP is partnered with USU to research where they will go from there.
Sam Braegger
Outreach Coordinator
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Thanks for the update.
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Hey Pat,
Can you tell the difference in the lake? Are the numbers of carp noticeably different than they were before this started? Seems like the carp make the water up here very turbid and muddy whenever they are active, have you noticed the water clarity any better? Seems like they spent a lot of money to do the impossible to me... I hope it has helped, but I expect it won't last too long if it did help.. Too bad those ole pioneers or whoever it was ever brought those golden tarpon west with them, they are kind of a curse now days... Thanks for the update... J
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[#0000FF]From a purely personal observation standpoint, I do believe there has been a noticeable reduction in carp overall. BS (before seining) it was difficult to fish plastics without hooking a few carp in a day's fishing. Some actually slurped the lures but most were "dorsal diners" or "tail takers". These days it is sometimes difficult to catch a carp for bait.
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[#0000FF]And on some early morning ventures...with calm water and the right water temps...you could look across the lake and see hundreds of "carp clumps"...groups of carp swimming together on the surface. There are still a few to be seen, but not in the numbers of old.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]When the annual spring fling...carp spawning...is in full force around the lake, you would swear that there were more carp than ever. But when they disperse after spawning they spread out over the entire lake and are less noticeable.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]You mentioned water turbidity. Carp are definitely contributors to muddying the water. But because Utah Lake is fairly shallow overall, any major wind event stirs up the whole lake. So it is difficult to separate wind from carp when the water turns chocolate. However, I have seemed to notice more days of "walleye green" water the past couple of years.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]I would really like to see the powers that be take a shot at trying the [url "https://blog.csiro.au/reclaiming-our-rivers-from-feral-carp/"]"carp herpes" virus[/url]. There have been a few successful experiments in the states, where portions of a lake were diked off...to prevent potential damage to other fish populations. It really seems to work. The major concern in Utah Lake is the darling June Sucker. It is highly unlikely that the feds would allow the use of any such agent unless and until it has been proven 1000% safe for suckers.
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[#0000FF]My opinion? Yes, carp numbers have been reduced but even with the "maintenance" program it may not be enough to prevent another carp explosion. Carp are horrific and prolific spawners...with an "average" female producing huge quantities of eggs. (See attached pic) During a good spawning year...with prolonged successful spawning and good recruitment...carp populations can increase exponentially in a short time. Natural predation from walleyes, catfish, bass, pike and white bass occurs only during the short time the young are small enough to eat. They grow quickly and are too big for most predators by fall.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]In short? The genie was let out of the lamp long ago and is now almost uncontrollable. At best you can throw lots of money at the problem without ever being able to totally eradicate them. You can knock down the numbers...temporarily...but anything short of a mass poisoning will never work long term. And you know that poisoning is not an option as long as one last Junie still lives in the lake.
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I hate to admit it but Pat is right on about the carp numbers in UL. I too have noticed a significant drop in the number of carp seen and/or caught in the big pond. The carp clusters used to be much more plentiful and they always provided a good "flock shot" with a fish arrow for gathering fresh cat bait. When traveling at high speed in my boat it was not uncommon to clobber a cluster and observe a big pink mist created by my prop as I went over them. I think the carp numbers are down but there will always be plenty for a good time with a bow and to collect cat bait.
I am anxious to see what the spawn looks like this year... but then I'm just anxious to get back on the water.
Ice go away.
BLK
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Thanks Pat for the in sight. Jeff
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Thanks Lynn for the info, but you really need to ice fish and quit jinxing my ice season. It’s already too short. Pretty sure we’re half way through it by now. Thinking of trying the cats through the ice but it will be tough to find safe ice. Going to try soon. Later Jeff
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It's too bad that a plane carrying a few thousand pounds of Rotenone cant ACCIDENTLY dump its load in the lake.
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Why not have a Red Neck Fishing Tournament like the one held annually in Bath, Illinois? It’s wholesome family entertainment. And the participants remove a few carp, as well as eliminating some of the weak and dim witted participants from the gene pool through natural selection as they fall out of their boats, etc.
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[#0000FF]I have suggested to DWR several times to have an informal, disorganized, unlimited and lake-wide carp killing festival. It would serve not only to remove carp but provide a lot of fun and friendly competition. The main argument against it? "It would create a big pile of dead fish that would have to be disposed of."[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]My concept was to get a few commercial sponsors to publicize it...and sell archery or angling supplies. Then those same sponsors could arrange either a one-time or periodic pickup from a designated depository dumpster. But my thinking was evidently too advanced...or not advanced enough. The idea has never gotten any consideration.
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I have long said that until they are willing to use a biological approach they will never get the carp under control, unless they are willing to net huge numbers of carp annually for ever. I know they like to talk about reaching a "tipping point", when the number of carp have been reduced (through netting) that the carp will not rebound and reproduce in massive numbers. I try to believe that it is possible to reach that point, but as much as I try to talk myself into it I can't.
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[#0000FF]We have both been around long enough to remember that there has been a major carp seining operation on Utah Lake for decades. Before carp were found to have PCBs they were sold for human consumption in several major markets around the country. And I truly believe that there were just as many if not more carp taken out of Utah Lake every year as there have been during the recent years of Junie salvation. I personally watched a lot of truckloads leave the lake in those days.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Time will tell. Time is a tattletale.
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[quote kentofnsl]I have long said that until they are willing to use a biological approach they will never get the carp under control[/quote]
I've posted this before but as part of my professional accreditation duties, I took a course on the carp herpes virus and related conditions. The "cliff notes" version of what was learned is as follows.
1. The herpes virus kills 70% of the carp.
2. The 30% that survive are carriers and pass it on to offspring who also are carriers.
3. There is concern trasporting the virus around for commercial koi growers.
4. It tends to be specific for carp and koi, but managers do worry about it affecting other species.
The bottom line for Utah lake is that it would not eradicate carp, just knock them back and a resistant survivor population would be capable of re-growing the population. Could it be a "tipping point" tool as part of an overall management plan? Maybe, but there are real concerns about its use.
It is not the magic bullet that some internet warriors proclaim it to be in the battle with carp populations.
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If killing 70% of the carp wouldn't reach the magical "tipping point" then netting them will never achieve that goal. I still say that unless they use some type of biological method to knock the carp down they will never get on top of them.
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I remember as a young child of probably 5 or so (folks that don't know me that is about 65 years ago) watching them fill up a large truck with carp near the current Utah Lake State Park. Yet, somehow removing likely a similar quantity now is supposed to reach a "tipping point". Frankly, I hope they are right and it actually works.
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Thanks for following up on that for me Pat, interesting stuff. It doesn't sound like a real positive outlook for the future.
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[#0000FF]You are welcome.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Carp and positive are two words that probably do not belong together. Having lived in Utah and having fished Utah Lake over many years, I am not too optimistic about the carp situation. All they need is a minor letup in their eradication and they will quickly get out of hand again.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]The sky is falling...but carp ain't.
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Just for a little first hand experience with Carp Herpes.
Carp herpes has been present in most of the water ways in the San Joaquin valley in California for many years.
I have a home there that sets right on a 300 acre ground water recharge basin in the San Joaquin. A recharge basins is basically a volume controlled lake.
I am the president of the board for a water company that delivers water put into the ground though this basin.
As a avid fisherman, living right on,,and having day to day knowledge of the operation of a water system that has a Carp population that carries the Carp Herpes virus,,these are my observations.
The virus does not kill the Carp in cold or cool water.
It starts to effect the Carp in early summer. The infection will first show as lethargic fish close to shore with reddish white rashes covered by a muckus like substance. Once they reach this condition they die within a couple of days. Once they die they are floaters.
Infections in a population usually start off slow building to a peak and then tapering off slowly towards early fall. I have never see a catastrophic die off like poison or oxygen Depredation might cause. Although treating the water with Bluestone (copper sulfate) will greatly inhance a die off for what ever reason.
The waters I am talking about have largemouth bass, spotted bass and small mouth bass, 3 types of catfish, strippers, several types of sun fish, crappie, squaw fish, thred fin shad musquito minows, common carp, and buffalo carp.
I have never seen the virus, or the bluestone effect any fish other than the common carp and the buffalo carp. It does not seem to effect the first year young or the very big fish.
Every year you will see a die off. Some years will be worse for the carp than others.
It really does slow or at least help to control a carp population.
I can not find anything about it being tested on suckers which would be the first step before an infestation in Utah Lake.
Also I do know of some biologist saining infected carp minnows from this area to be shipped to Australia to be used for treatment of thier carp problems.
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Yes, your observations are correct. The virus is temperature sensitive and is most infective at a certain temperature range. As you noted, it doesn't eradicate the carp and the carrier carp reach a certain population equilibrium. Whether these factors make it suitable or unsuitable for Utah lake is something I'm not sure about. Maybe it would indeed help, but it is not something that will take out all the carp, as is sometimes said in these types of threads.
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The waters I am talking about have largemouth bass, spotted bass and small mouth bass, 3 types of catfish, strippers, several types of sun fish, crappie, squaw fish, thred fin shad musquito minows, common carp, and buffalo carp.
I have never seen the virus, or the bluestone effect any fish other than the common carp and the buffalo carp. It does not seem to effect the first year young or the very big fish.
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And no, the carp herpes virus doesn't affect people either. [  ][  ]
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"Although treating the water with Bluestone (copper sulfate) will greatly inhance a die off for what ever reason."
[#0000FF]My best guess is that the bluestone kills algae and aquatic vegetation...reducing food supplies for the herbivorous carp.
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[#0000FF]Great info and insight. As I stated in another post, the only mass destruction will occur when and if the whole lake is treated with rotenone...or equivalent. But that ain't gonna happen as long as the Junies are still alive.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]If the herpes works better in warm conditions there is at least a 3 to 4 month window on Utah Lake when water temps remain above 70 and even into the low 80's. So it should have some visible impact.[/#0000FF]
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