License Increase vs. What we expect in return

[lonehunter]

[black][size 3]Hunting and fishing participants are dwindling in Michigan due to the confusion of our laws and regulations we have to follow here in our state, unfortunately the Mi.D.N.R. has it's head up it's bureaucratic butt and can't see the damage it has done to itself .
Now they want to increase our fees to compensate the future losses it will see due to its mismanagement.
Please post what you would like to see in return from the Mi.D.N.R. for your money . I will send copies to our legislators, Governor, and to the MI.D.N.R. .
Thank you.
(Below is copied from the feral swine/small game post)

If the MI D.N.R. wants to raise our license fees, fine, so be it, but in return I demand that we sportsmen get something in return.

Uniform regulations!

All trout streams should have the same laws applied to them statewide. Fish lengths (all species) should be uniform throughout the state as well.
Artificial lures only, fly only , no motor only , length requirements apply on this stream but not that one , possession limits vary , and my personal favorite boundaries . Have you ever read the boundary descriptions? , Now that’s confusing!

Boundaries, weather for hunting or fishing should be done on a county by county boundary line, look at the current turkey hunting guide, counties are divided in half and have different quotas and hunt dates. Private property that boarders state land must be marked, thus ending recreational trespass.

Uniform “Hunting Laws Statewide"

Deer licenses, your first license should have a large number one on it , your second a number two on it .
Your first license (license numbered "one") should entitle you to take either a buck or an antler less deer regardless of method/season of hunting.
Your second license (numbered "two") should entitle you to harvest a antlered only buck 3 points or better on one side.
Antler less permits should be made for both state and private land use (regardless of private land acreage). People that have 40 acres are already entitled to block permits so why the hell can they be the only ones to get antler less permits? Land is around $4000.00 an acre, can the regular working guy afford 40 acres? , nope .

Commercial netting, it must be limited! No more placing commercial nets within a mile of a rivers mouth during the spawning runs!
Fish weirs, leave at least half of the river open for migrating fish.

Hunting Sportsman’s Application Package, I want one! This would automatically register you into every special hunt drawing (Elk, Bear, Turkey, and Antler less Deer).

I want a statewide pass!
Right now there are separate passes for boat launches, state parks, federal lands, county parks , and special area passes .
I want one pass that would entitle me to go to anyone I choose. My windshield is beginning to look like a danged checkerboard with all the passes I have every year!

I want every one of those dammed yellow gates removed from state and federal land, period!

I want someone that will investigate and take action against Mi.D.N.R. Employees that abuse their position and force false confessions to crimes they did not commit.

Small game license must apply to all species of small game, right now if you do not answer yes to hunting cretin species of bird and you shoot one you are poaching that bird, that's just ridicules !

Waterfowl hunting requires a small game license, why?
A waterfowl license should be good enough alone to hunt waterfowl, period!

Right now it is the private sector that sponsors fishing events for children and tournaments for adults , I want the state to put on a few of them .

The state requires hunter safety certificates, then the state can provide these classes thru our school systems (both in regular school age classes and thru adult education courses).

I want ALL hunters and fishermen to approve or deny any proposed law changes made that affect our pastime before it is made law. Groups like M.U.C.C. although good for the most part do show bias with the Mi.D.N.R. when it comes to proposed law changes and why not , the Mi.D.N.R. Supports the M.U.C.C. financially and that’s who the Mi.D.N.R. Consults first .

Well, this is only a few demands I can think of off the top of my head, I bet with a little time I could come up with a whole list of demands.

Clear-cutting of State Lands
Did you realize that the entire clear cutting is mostly done to sections of the forests that have hardwoods? The wood is primarily used to be ground up and used to furnish fuel to power plants. Although commercial wood harvesters are required to replant the area they seldom do. It's cheaper to pay the small penalty than to replant seedlings.
Hardwoods feed our game with the nuts and fruits they provide.
Pines do not.
I want controlled selective harvesting and mandatory reforestation of our woodlands with hardwoods, not pines or left to be barren.

I want the laws to say " in use " instead of "in possession "when describing equipment." In possession of " has a lot of gray area left open to interpolation, hell I have musky lures at my house, so, I possess them, can I get a ticket for that? I'm sure one day someone will try to enforce that.
Most guys have one tackle box, if you are on trout stream fishing and a 2 oz. lure is in your tackle box, you are breaking the law. If your tackle box contains a 2 oz. lure and it is in your car and not on the stream with you while you are fishing, you are still breaking the law. Why wouldn't lures at home be interpretive as being in possession of?[/size][/black]
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[davetclown]

[size 3][black]I hope that’s better...[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]I think you may have missed the point. [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]True our cost is minimal, for a family making more than 40k+ per year, but what about us who hunt and fish to put food on our tables. We, merely are trying to survive this economy by our boot straps…[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]For what money the state receives from our sport, it would be nice if we could have rules and regulations that don’t need a team of lawyers to decipher them.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Lonehunter can correct me if I am wrong with the interpretations of his post. [/black][/size]
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[black][size 3]It would literally cost less money to prosecute violators, cost less money to print these novels of rules and regulations to just a couple pages, keep those who are trying to walk the line on the straight and narrow so that we can continue to be not only good sportsmen but quality citizens as well.
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[lonehunter]

You think the spelling is bad you should see me do my taxes []!!!!

Davetclown has hit a few of the problems on the head , but the main reason is because the D.N.R. dosen't comprehend WHY there are less hunters and fishermen .

We didn't write the Guides , regulations , and laws , the D.N.R. did that . They made it so complicated that the average person can not understand ALL the rules and regulations that go with each sport . Fear of getting a ticket is the first thing that comes into a persons mind when they see a D.N.R. C.O. that is why people opt out of hunting and fishing , fines aren't cheep !

Why should people fear the C.O. ? There should be no reason for this unless the person is purposly doing something illeagle . The curent regulations we have in place do not afford us the peace of mind that we are 100% completely legal in our quest to enjoy the great outdoors , thus , less participants in outdoor activitys .

The D.N.R. has advised me not to hunt coyote using a small game license even though it is listed as a species I can take under the small game license , why ? There are other laws in place to be concidered , read the entire collection of hunting guides .

Trout streams , do they each need special restrictions ? If you say yes , then why dosent the D.N.R. post signs on the rivers alerting the anglers where these areas are ? If you want to carry a G.P.S. , a platt book (of every county ) , a range finder , the fishing guide , the trout handbook , a map , surveying equipment and a library of compiled D.N.R. laws stuffed somewhere in your waders , be my guest .

As for me , I will press for more deregulation of the laws that have become too complex . I am not the only person that feels this way , did you read the articals in the Woods and Water News , The U.P. Press , and some of the other reginal news papers and on-line fishing / hunting sites ?

Anyway , welcome to the B.F.T. boards I would be interested in reading more of your views on why uniform laws should not be put in place .
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[lonehunter]

[size 1]For those that hunt or fish to keep the family from going hungry, finding a better job would be the wiser idea. The vast majority enjoy the sport as a hobby. [/size]
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[size 1]This is Michigan , better jobs are scarse . I myself have a somewhat good paying job for my area . " Farm Country " however , is not like an urban or metropolitan area where jobs are more prevelent . I myself don't know of anyone in my area that dosen't hunt or fish to put a few extra meals on the table , count your blessings that you concider hunting and fishing a hobby . [/size]
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[size 1] Worrying about CO's has never really been an issue with my aquaintances.[/size]
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[size 1]Mine neither , I respect the dutys they preform and try my best to follow the rules , however , the rules have become become more complicated than is necessary .[/size]
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[size 1]Sure your heart rate goes up a bit when you are checked by a CO but as long as your playing by the rules or you don't have any warrants out against you you'll be fine. [/size]
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[size 1]Same here , I don't worry about the C.O. , But , is there some rule I overlooked ?[/size]
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[size 1]Belive it or not I have fished most of the rivers you have mentioned and quite a few others . I carry both feild books with me in my vest and try to cross reference every regulation I can find in them before I step into the river . Why do I do this ? Fear of doing something wrong for that particular strech of gravel .[/size]
[size 1]A person shouldn't have to fear their sport . That is what our outdoor activitys have become , am I doing something wrong ?[/size]
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[size 1]I do have to sign off now but will be back on tomorow evening . You have some good points I do agree with , but , there are a few I do not concide .[/size]
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[lonehunter]

O.K. , I'm back .
I did write a post here , but it was more like standing up on a soap box and yelling at the wind [blush].
As far as the D.N.R. goes I have this to say . I personally think that the C.O.'s are not the problem . They are a fantastic bunch of people that do a great justice to the uniform they dawn everyday . I do commened them for working in an enviornment that most would have second thoughts of persuing . I wouldn't want to sneak up on someone at night that is armed with a gun out in the middle of the woods . That takes a bravery that is beyond my comprehention .
C.O.'S rule [cool] !

I do know there occupation is to uphold the law and to protect the states natural recourses that we the people have put them in stewardship of . I do not recall that the people of this state have turned over our rights in the decision making process reguarding how a government agency is to conduct the business we have intrusted it to do , nor do I belive any of us have chosen to abandon our responsibility of stewardship concerning our natural resourses . All of us must take our responsibilitys serousily , not to just preserve our sporting heritage for the hear and now but , for future generations .
The D.N.R. has gone from the custodian position we entrusted it to and become a entity of it's own that feels we ordinary citisens don't know what is good for us or our resourses .
Recently there was a house bill that would turn over public boat launches ( road ends )to local governments or lake associations .
Who were the sponsors of this bill ?
Was it the family that has gone to the shores of those launches to fish because it is the only available public acess site on a otherwise private lake ? No , they were left out , why? Because part of the bill would eliminate fishing and picknicing from those areas .
The sponsors were several lake association members , home builders and people that live on private lakes . The D.N.R. also suported the bill , reason , it would free up time patrolling those areas reducing costs incured .
Funny , when you read thru the documents concerning the dutys that the D.N.R. has , promoting outdoor recreation to the public is mentioned foremost . Who stood up for that family that would like to spend a day fishing together ? Was it the D.N.R. ?
No , I did .

I do not see the yellow gate as being handicaped acessable , a handicaped hunter can purchase his special license to hunt from there vehical (following the laws of corse ) but , he can't do it on the far side of the gate .

You are entitled to harvest two deer a year if you choose to do so , one license at a time , posession of two tags , illeagle , why ?
That makes no sence .
I don't know how many hunters I have run into over the years who have gone hunting and only seen antlerless deer , wouldn't making your first tag antlerless or buck help to bring balance to the buck doe relationship in this state ? Wouldn't letting the hunter have his opurtunity at putting some meat on the table be it doe or buck bring hunters numbers up ?
It would but , that would cut into the generated renivew with the sale of drawing aplications and antlerless licenses. Most would think it's not that much money but when it's all added up were talking millions .

All I guess I am saying is if you want to increase participation in recreational sports , simplify the rules . The D.N.R. is suposed to promote outdoor activitys . The constant restrictions being introduced have proven themselves to be a strong deturing factor when dealing with the public sector .

That's all for today .
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[davetclown]

[size 3]That last statement was just plain cold hearted.[/size]
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[size 3]I used to work for the DNR my self.[/size]
[size 3]I also spent thousands of hours teaching handy capped persons how to stretch their food budgets by buying a fishing license and teaching them how to find live bait, how to use artificial baits, how to prepare fish for their dinner. Show them how to use every single part of the fish so absolutely nothing goes to waist.[/size]
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[size 3]as for some one having to pick up weekly or monthly printings to keep up with current laws, well that is just unreasonable. It’s hard enough to keep them updated with annual changes with out having to deal with the ones that change in mid season.[/size]
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[font "Arial Black"][black]So that last statement of yours gets a [] from me.[/black][/font]

[size 3]I am sure you typed it in haste, and if you had really given it some thought you would not have put it in.[/size]
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[size 3]The old saying comes to mind, you cant tell what another man is going though unless you walk a mile in his shoes.... Be careful the good lord doesn’t bless you with ten miles worth of understanding...[/size]
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[davetclown]

[size 3][black]Apology accepted...[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Here is my annual cost.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Note these are my annuals cost for fishing. What I spend for fishing a year.[/black][/size] [ul] [li][size 3][black]Beer and alcohol 5.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Gas for my boat motor 2.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Equipment (new line and hooks) 7.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Worms 0.00 I dig them up out of my garden[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Minnows 0.00 I catch half dozen before I row out to my spot.[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Mousies 15.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Fishing License 24.00[/black][/size][/li][/ul]
[size 3][black]My hunting cost me last year,[/black][/size] [ul] [li][size 3][black]Deer license 15.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Gas to my hunting spot 10.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Beer and alcohol 0.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Rapping paper for self hand cut 5.00[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]4.00 for antler less deer license lottery[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]4.00 for elk license lottery[/black][/size][/li][/ul]
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[size 3][black]I eat at least two pounds of fish per week. When I am not catching them my self I pay this per year.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]If I had to buy that fish off the market I would be spending from 350.00 - 1560 per year, depending if I wanted to eat tuna and fish sticks up to eating a slice of salmon steak lobster shrimp ect....[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]My ammo is 10 years old....[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]I don’t teach hunting to handicapped because it is too much of a gamble, that’s forty dollars they can guarantee on mac and cheese dishes.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Price is not my complaint, although it is an issue for the thousands of individuals in this state who are living on food stamps and making under 10 k per year, believe me, I have no complaints about the sticker price. When I was in the labor force I bought every license I could afford whether I hunted or not.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]While ice fishing a couple years ago, (last time we had ice enough to fish in south east mi) I had a tip-up set up on Union Lake; I was twenty yards over jigging. A CO came over and looked at my tip-up walked away and hung around for a couple hours. [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]When the flag went up, before I could get up and walk the distance, (I am handy capped my self), he went over to my tip-up and started pulling it up, when I got there, I asked him what he was doing, he said he was pulling up an unattended tip-up. I told him it was not unattended and pointed to my bucket where I was sitting; it as well as my tip-up had bigfishtackle stickers on it. Then he told me I had to have my name address and phone number on the tip-up.... [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black][black][size 3]My point is[/size][/black][black][size 3], its been two years, I am still trying to find where it says I have to have my name address and phone number on my tip-up... (To save future arguments, I made an aluminum plate and permanently mounted it to my tip-up...[/size][/black] [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]One would think that if it were a law that the market would have something to mark tip-ups and would have them on the shelf next to the tip-up like they to with fur traps...[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]What we are saying is make the books simpler, instead of ... put some organization to them, and don’t make us search though 50 pages just to see what the legal methods for fishing for pike are. If there are special regulations and so much information that it cant be printed, then tell us what web page they are on so we can go look up the unabridged version...[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]In short give us the information straightforward, make it idiot proof. Don’t make us have to hunt for it. If we can be ticketed and fined for it, it has to be in print in plain open site.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Our licenses are a joke, on some machines they come out so faded you can’t read them, on top of which they fade after time. You make the mistake of leaning against a heating banister any info on the license is gone.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]They used to be different colors for different years, different colors for small game, deer, duck, fishing, and doe.... now they are all the same. Try fumbling though a half dozen licenses with steamed up glasses on a cold November day when you can scarcely see them in your kitchen under bright lights.. At least make the printer print a picture of the animal the license is good for... say a rabbit or squirrel for small game, deer with antlers for restricted deer or deer with no antlers for does, or deer with spikes for regular license. A bass or blue gill for regular license, and because you have to have both fishing license to fish for trout, a salmon for all species fishing license. [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Our governor’s excuse is they need to raise the price of licenses because of all the printing. Duh! Send every place you send the license machine a CD and if some one wants a copy of the of some hunting regulations they can drop a quarter off at the desk for the copy fee for any special info. Or they can get it from the library for a dime. Or home computer for free.... All we really need is to know the page address where to find the info…[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]For that matter, for that matter you can make the CD available on the DNR site for a cost of 10.00 shipping and handling included a CD with all the 2007-2008 hunting regulations. Or all the rules and regulations for a 1.00 fee to down load in pdf or html formats from the state DNR website. Or free down load with any on line license purchase [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]One other thing, any one drawing food stamps should be given a fishing license and directed to the nearest public fishing holes to their home. Given information on how to catch them, how to prepare them for table fare.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]In other states, they give seniors and disabled individuals a one-dollar lifetime fishing license and discounted hunting licensing. In some states there is no fee for fishing license for low income trying to put food on their table.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]It gives them back some sense of pride and dignity to be able to do something for them selves on their own in times when our economy cannot sustain them...[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]When you think about it, what dose the state loose when you give low-income people a fishing license; A few planted fish that sportsmen are catching and releasing every year, A couple pennies for the computer printed license? I am not saying give them a trout license, trout anglers pay loads of money for their artificial sport. [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]You can make by far more money by fining industrial waist dumpers, and fine towns and counties that allow toxic waters escape form their borders with a down river act. You would be amazed as to how clean the waters in this state would become.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Run mandatory septic and sump pump test on every house on a lake every five years; I bet those lakes that have a hard time freezing in the winter start freezing over again....[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]There is a lot of ways the state can make money, with just a few acts of legislation for little or no money invested. [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]We have CO's in the field already; they used to carry test kits to check on the ph of waters on any given day.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]If industry is polluting here, we really can’t afford to have them here. If they leave and pollute in other countries then we really don’t want their products here either. The offence is just as great as breaking child labor laws, worse when you think about it, because those same children and others are eating and bathing in their toxic waist.[/black][/size]
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[davetclown]

[size 3][black]Well I have to concede my name on the tip up argument, no one could tell me were it was in the book, finally I found it at the risk of obtaining a massive headache.[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]Well, going over Michigan fishing reg's, I found that this devise must have the operators name and address affixed to it...[/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]This rule can be found on page 5 of the Michigan fishing guide April 06 to March 08 edition, beginning at the end of line three and it reads... [/black][/size]
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[size 3][black]-"[black][size 3]Tip-ups and similar devises used for ice fishing must show the angler's name and address. All Lines must be under immediate control[/size][/black]."[/black][/size]
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[black][size 3]Still my other complaint stands, because the rules for my number #1 sport "Ice Fishing" are scattered all though the book when they could be placed in a single paragraph.[/size][/black]
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[lonehunter]

[size 1]My point being that you shouldn't manage a resource based on a "harvest as much as possible mentality".[/size]

Uh , Don't you think that the D.N.R. is thinking that about average Joes wallet ?
I don't know about how the government operates , but in the real world of average joe citicen , If you don't have enough money to live off of , ya either get a second or third job or do without .
Hell my pockets only go soo deep and then there's nothing left .

Now as far as the price , Don't get me started !

Now if we put the same D.N.R. mathamatics involved in raising the states minimum wage a burger flipper at Mc Donnalds would be raking in about $20.00 an hour by 2006 , whoops , that didn't happen did it [crazy]?
I was making $7.50 back in 71' , My wages are under the "inflation rate" currently charged for a deer license ($15.00 ) . $36.06 ? , who's income is this based on ?

The state has gotta quit basing everyones income on the big 3s wage scale , not everyone that works belongs to a union !


I loved looking in the paper a couple years back when jenny sold off a couple hundred acers of hunting land on the west side of the state to a company from Japan for , correct me if I'm wrong , a buck and no property taxes !
Then I see her in this weeks paper schmoosing some China dude auto maker . I'm thinking , what kinda deal is gonna happen now .
We had and have several metropolitan areas that already have suport systems in place to get a major mfg. operation going , why not utilise them ?
I could kick myself in the butt for saying this but ,Why not do more for the automakers we already have ? (I don't come close to those kind of wages ).

Now you take that land jenny gave away , devide it up into 10 acre plots and raffle them off at $20.00 a ticket and I betcha you would make a cool million a plot and more than that in real estate taxes every year after .


When a failing state campground can be managed by a private party and show a profit in the first year , what does that tell ya ?

It tells me someone has been mismanaging things for awhile and someone else knows that taking care of those who use the area will bring back old and new business .

Our problem is were dealing with a government agency that only knows two things to make money , raise the rates and add a few more taxes .

Ya' want more people fishing , hunting and camping ? cater to your coustomer base , it's how all sucessfull business run .


[size 1]You two should add up all the money that you spend in a given year on fishing and hunting supplies and equipment, gas for driving to your destination or for your boat, beer or whatever else encompases you outings and then compare that to the price of your licences.[/size]
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[size 1]If we deducted all the federal and state taxes imposed on these items then hell , I wouldn't be opposed to paying more , ya' gotta realise , Michigan's taxes on these items are higher than the taxes paid on them in other states .[/size]


[size 1]Do they have as much to manage as us?[/size]
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[size 1]supply and demand , thats why diamonds are so expensive .[/size]


My gosh bud , I don't want ya thinking I'm anti- D.N.R. , cause I'm not . I think we have a pretty good bunch of them here in our state .
The thing is , years of let's make this a law and lets make that a law has piled up and ruined it for the simple pastimes that used to be enjoyed by states population . They wrecked it for a lot of guys by making it too hard for them and now they want the rest of us to pay for there mistakes .

I don't go hunting and fishing with the " I gotta limit out " attitude .
I steelhead and salmon fish whenever possible , combined I maybe keep 3 a year to eat . If I feel like a regular fish dinner , I get enough for a meal or two at one of the local lakes .
Venison , I don't fill every tag every year but I try my best to . I have a dosen or so tags that I never got a chance to fill but i would have liked to .
Maybe your used to hunting and fishing as a hobby .
Me , I never harvest more fish than is needed , and don't take half as much as the law allows .
I could take deer in my yard and be a poacher , but that ain't me .
I buy my license , go to the deercamp a hundred and fifty miles away and follow the rules the best I can , sometimes I get one , sometimes I don't , that's something called sportsmanship .

All in all , if the D.N.R . want's to increase outdoor activity they have got to make it a littlle bit easier for people to partake in outdoor recreation .
What was the stupid bill in the house this year ? Oh yea, feed a seagull and get kicked out of the state park .
come on , can it get much more ridiculos than that ?
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[davetclown]

[size 3][black]You hit one major problem with our economy here in this state,

we allow developers to dig out forest and farms to put in new factories when we have thousands of factories that need to come down and be rebuilt,

we give those companies tax breaks on those properties, Why? Wouldn’t it make more sense to except those properties no longer being used as payments in lieu of taxes owed and then resell or give away to other outside companies who want to do business in this state?

At least this way the eye soars will be gone. No one can tell me it is cheaper to build in a new location than it is to rebuild. I see the amount of de-forestation that takes place, then the amount of land that has to be dug up and stabilized before any thing can be built, then the super structure of sewage and electrical has to go in before a new structure has to go up....

well guess what that is the exact same thing that has to be done with all those empty factories still standing all over Michigan’s city sides....[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size][black][size 3]Lets face it, there is a market for old asphalt, and there is a market for broken concrete and re-rod,[/size][/black]
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[davetclown]

[size 3][black]I have no problem with the rule; I said I conceded, once I found it stuck in the back third of a paragraph.[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]My complaint was being able to find it, [/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]When I was in the work force, I did travel the entire state to fish for as many species as I could in a year, "how else do you get to truly become a master angler?[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]It is good to see you have a healthy attitude towards Ingler, I have been complaining about him for 18 years now, yep, I complained before he got in to office, I complained while he was in office, I am still complaining about him and how he has destroyed this state, to me he is another Millican, "Latterly"[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]The problem I have with the current governor is she instead of putting back in place the power structure that was set up by true outdoorsmen and those who really appreciated the quality of a natural life style.[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]He also made the highest DNR position an appointed possession by the governor instead of being elected by the people, that in it self was overstepping his legal authority. When Grandholm followed suit, she became as guilty as Ingler.[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]Here is the kicker, the reason he eliminated the head DNR position is because it was the only one who had legal authority to call the governor and secretary of state in to formal hearings. By eliminating that elected office, he also eliminated the only authority to challenge him.[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]Needless to say, he is one of my pet peves. He ranks right up on top of the list of the worst things that has happened to this state, He is as bad for any civilization and environment as any natural disaster..[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]Basically what we scream about the most is, we want our government to be looking at the outdoors sportsmen’s and our environmental and our economical and our community’s best interest instead of self-serving and best interest of the rich…. [/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[black][size 3]The two dollars I spend on gas for my motor is what I needed to run the motor once a year to keep it in shape. Other wise I would be rowing, my boat is just a 12-foot rowboat…[/size][/black]
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[davetclown]

[size 3][black]I thought about a line you put in your post today while on the ice fishing,,[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]I got in to a debate with another angler and we were discussing trapping,[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]We got to talking about people stealing traps, and the scenario came up, some one pulls one of your traps and takes it out of the woods, a CO comes by and catches the man with the trap. What is supposed to happen?[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size] [ul] [li][size 3][black]Well the co is supposed to check the man carrying the trap for his trapping license[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]Check the trap for a name and address[/black][/size][/li][/ul]
[size 3][black]So we come up with two possible scenarios, [/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size] [ol] [li][size 3][black]The trap has a name and address that dose not match the name of the man carrying it.[/black][/size][/li] [li][size 3][black]The trap doses not have a nametag on the trap. And the guy says he pulled it because it doesn’t have a nametag on it and was bringing it in to a CO.[/black][/size][/li][/ol]
[size 3][black]The debate arose, dose this person get a ticket, and for which scenario?[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]The answer is the person gets a ticket for both scenarios.[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]Why?[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]In scenario #1 he gets a ticket because names do not match. Doesn’t matter if you and your buddy are checking each other's traps, If that be the case, your buddy, even though it may be an inconvenience will show up at a police station or CO office and present himself as a co-trapper of a line... If not he is stealing traps!!!!![/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]In scenario #2 where the trap dose not have a name on it, the person gets a ticket which he can not dispute because by law he is in the possession of a trap in the woods not bearing a name and claiming to have pulled the trap to turn in he has given testimony against himself as to disturbing another mans trap, thus he receives yet another ticket. It doesn’t matter if he is telling the truth or not, no one can say one-way or the other, so he is in violation of two laws. Lets say the person doesn’t have a trapper’s license; he gets a third ticket... But wait, we are not done there, lets say he was telling the truth, and the trap did not have a name tag on it, he gets yet one more ticket, "evidence tampering" which is a felony[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]The point is, even though there is no exam question for that in the hunting guide, if you don’t know about it you can still get in trouble for it, An officer once told me that Ignorance was 9/10s of the law...[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]What happens if you fail to learn all the laws before you act, you get to pay the court for your failure, because here there is only one passing grade and one failing grade. "You pass, you don’t get a ticket, you fail, and you pay the piper"[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]Here is where the problem lays; our average adult only has the reading capacity of a student in the third grade.[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[size 3][black]It would be kool though if the state had a free online fishing exam and hunting exams where anglers could test their knowledge and keep their legal edges sharp...[/black][/size]
[size 3][black] [/black][/size]
[black][size 3]The point is, not to harass the paying costumers, but to prosecute those stealing from the store[/size][/black]....[sly]
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[lonehunter]

Hey Dude , once again .
The Mi.D.N.R. Concervation Officers are not the problem . They uphold the law as set by our Government . We support there efforts .

When purchasing or selling a product there are key factors that make a sucessfull item . People will pay just about anything for a good product that is simple to use .
Michigan is our product , use of the product has been choked by too many petty laws, rules and regulations ,taxes and fees . Our handbooks are a joke , they can be made easier to read and follow . We shouldn't have to whip out the book at each and every lake we fish or before crossing every road while huntnig . Uniform Statewide regulations should be utilised .

Aplication fees to enter into a drawing for a license , Increased ?
Maybe the Mi.D.N.R. should consult with the Michigan lottery board on how to operate the drawing . A 50 cent lottery wadger enters you into the drawing and if sucessfull gets you the cash prise . Under the proposed Mi.D.N.R. increases we would be paying a higher entry fee to purchase a higher (doubled) license fee . How is that a win win situation for Michigan ?
We are overcharged to begin with on the aplication fees . Combined , the Mi.d.n.r. makes billions on these overpriced aplication fees . What is the aplicant getting in return for his aplication money ? There is nothing tangible in return , you can't hold it in your hand , it has no value , it takes no more energy or effort to be put into the computer program than it did before .

I see that the Mi.D.N.R. requests higher Fishing license fees to battle invasive species brought into our Great Lakes Region by overseas freaghters .
Hmm, I would think that the Freight lines that enter our waters bringing these parisites would be the ones to be charged with the clean-up and prevenative measures , not the fishermen that have to put up with there mistakes , Duhh !

What was that D.N.R. proposal a couple years back? , Oh yea , watercraft licenses for inertubes . Someone wasted a bunch of our money there for nothing .

Hunting/ fishing regulations need to be streamlined thus creating a better product for the public to take notice of , This will increase revinew .
Face it , a product that is easy to use at an affordable price will be sucessfull , otherwise we would be corisponding with a quill pen, ink well and a pony express rider .

I don't see where any sportsperson would complain about justifible moderate increases to support the Mi.D.N.R. and it's programs .
However , The Mi.D.N.R. must accept that it has done a piss poor job in maintaining a enviornment geared to encouraging outdoor activitys for the customers that fund them. The Mi.D.N.R. is cutting it's own throat and it dosen't realise it .
Raising the price of a product dosen't make it better , especially when the number of customers are dwindiling . Make the product better and increase the consumer base , Thats' the ticket !
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[lonehunter]

Reality ?

Applying for the licence isn't overpriced ? Like I said a 50 cent lottery ticket can get me a couple hundred bucks , $5.00 gets me a ($30.00 + the aplication fee of $5.00 ) a $35.00 turkey if i'm lucky ?
A store bought bird runs about $17.00 . Do the math .

I must be ignorant .

[size 1]Look at the back of your guides to get some sort of economic scale of the DNR fisheries or wildlife budgets.[/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1]Oh , I'm sorry , I didn't think of looking there for that little bit of information , instead I go the the Michigan Treasury Department .[/size]

The. D.N.R. and the D.E.Q. weren't once the same entity an nolonger have a say-so concerning balast water ? NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT

Act 451 of 1994

AN ACT to protect the environment and natural resources of the state; to codify, revise, consolidate, and classify laws relating to the environment and natural resources of the state; to regulate the discharge of certain substances into the environment; to regulate the use of certain lands, waters, and other natural resources of the state; to prescribe the powers and duties of certain state and local agencies and officials; to provide for certain charges, fees, assessments, and donations; to provide certain appropriations; to prescribe penalties and provide remedies; and to repeal acts and parts of acts.
324.3109 Discharge into state waters; prohibitions; exception; violation; penalties; abatement.
Sec. 3109.
(5) Beginning January 1, 2007, unless a discharge is authorized by a permit, order, or rule of the department, the discharge into the waters of this state from an oceangoing vessel of any [url "http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1al1lpzljd3kbqyqvjdty4ym))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-324-3109&queryid=16609504&highlight=ballast%20water#top"]ballast water[/url] is prima facie evidence of a violation of this part and subjects the responsible person to the penalties prescribed in section 3115.

I must be ignorant .

[size 1]Of course people like you never complain to your politicians about there lack of state stewardship responsibilty. But you will be first in line to tell them not to raise your license fees.[/size]

[size 1]Once again, thank you for your e-mail and please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns you may have regarding this, or any other issue. Sincerely, State Representative Tim Moore
97th District [/size]
[font "Times New Roman"][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"]Again, thank you for contacting me, I look forward to hearing from you.[/font][size 1]
[font "Times New Roman"][/font]
[/size][font "Times New Roman"][size 3]Sincerely,[/size][/font][size 1]
[font "Times New Roman"][/font]
[/size][font "Times New Roman"][size 3]Glenn Steil, Jr.[/size][/font][size 1]
[/size][font "Times New Roman"][size 3]State Representative [/size][/font]
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[size 1]I hope this helps give you a better understanding why the legislation
was introduced.

Sincerely,
Paula Zelenko
State Representative [/size]
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[size 1][/size]
[size 1]Again, thank you for sharing your opinion on this bill. Sincerely, Barb Vander Veen [/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1]I will certainly keep your thoughts in mind if this bill ever gets out of committee and before me for a vote on the House Floor. Sincerely, Dan Acciavatti State Representative[/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1]Thanks for your continued input. Paula Zelenko State Representative 50th District [/size]

[size 1]You are an important part of the legislative process and I look forward to hearing from you in the near future. Sincerely, Dave Hildenbrand
State Representative
86th District [/size]

I must be ignorant. Which leduslature's E-Mail address would you like ?

[size 1]Think about it next time you fill up with gas for your trip or stop at Jays, cabelas, gander Mtn or any other outdoor store and drop some cash. [/size]

And a percentage of the added pre-sale price tax isn't going to the D.N.R. already ? I must be Ignorant .

[size 1]Now we have a much higher percentage of senior licenses than we did then (baby boomers) and that loss of promised money builds and builds.[/size]
[size 1][/size]
And yet , The D.N.R. [font "Arial"]DOES NOT SUPPORT House bill 4659 ,[/font]
[font "Arial"]If the current majority of sportsmen are getting up in age then the D.N.R. should cater to the needs of that majority instead of turning a blind eye to them .[/font]

When a outdoorsman contacts the Mi.D.N.R. to ask about why the Mi.D.N.R. has made a change that has a negative impact to our outdoor activitys , do we get a courtous responce ? No !
[size 1]Response (Ozzie Bryant) -
> If you would like to address your concerns in regards to the law giving
> the Department the right to manage Public Lands, contact your local
> representative and state senator.[/size]
[font "Arial"][/font]
[font "Arial"]Yea , Call me stupid .[/font]
[font "Arial"][/font]
[size 1]Do you know that there will be massive cuts to programs if it doesn't go through. Maybe we don't need all those walleye and salmon anyways.[/size]

As far as the Walleye , I , as a regular Joe belong to a group that spends the fall and early spring prepairing the rearing pond that gives the hatchlings a place to grow into sizable fingerlings that are then transported thruout the Great Lakes area for future generations to enjoy catching . I don't charge for my time doing this , I do it because as a fisherman it is the right thing to do .

I hear guys boasting about going to a one day event to clean the banks of a river , Heck , I do it whenever I go out , I pick up trash left by others on the riverbanks and in the woods , my kids do to .
[size 1][/size]
324.503
The department may accept funds, money, or grants for development of salmon and steelhead trout fishing in this state from the government of the United States, or any of its departments or agencies, pursuant to the anadromous fish conservation act, Public Law 89-304, 16 U.S.C. 757a to 757f, and may use this money in accordance with the terms and provisions of that act. However, the acceptance and use of federal funds does not commit state funds and does not place an obligation upon the legislature to continue the purposes for which the funds are made available.
324.505 Federal fish stock and programs; application; listing of programs supplied to legislature.

Sec. 505.
The department, in pursuing the state's policy of propagating fish for the purpose of stocking the streams and lakes of the state, shall accept federal fish stock for such programs, and shall apply for all federal fish stock programs that do not commit the state to future expenditures.[size 2]

History: 1994, Act 451, Eff. Mar. 30, 1995
Popular Name: Act 451[/size]

Call me bubba , cause' I must be ignorant .

[size 1]As a moderator, you should educate yourself on the subjects you gripe about.[/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1]Hey , I do try , but I am not perfect , Like I said I do value your opinion . Your comments did some good to see that some moderate increases are a necessity .[/size]
[size 1]On the otherhand , There are changes that need to be made concerning encouraging the publics involvement in outdoor recreation in order to promote more activity and turning around a declining number of participants . [/size]
[size 1]You are under the asumption that the D.N.R. can only get funds to keep it alive from the active outdoor sportsperson , ssoooo wrong ![/size]
[size 1]Concessions , oil leases , mineral revinews , man the list goes on and on , including federal funds .[/size]
[size 1][/size]
[size 1]I may be ignorant in your opinion as you are entilted to have one , but , I can reconise mismanagement when I see it and I'm not about to stand by and let it continue without voicing my concerns .[/size]
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[lonehunter]

So the Mi.D.N.R. announced that some of the price increases will be in effect in incriments .
As soon as I get the skinny on them I will post the results .
If some are a little bit too much for me to swallow ya' can betcher bottom dollor I'll be sending out those E-mails and phone calls again .
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[lonehunter]

He shure tried the double talk to put the blame on the politicians when it came to the D.N.R. wanting to raise the prices 100% to 200% , didn't he ?

The general fund , the ol' pork barrel , the D.N.R. made due before dipping into it , they can live without it again .

Us working stiffs have lost retirement funds , paid vacations , sick days , personal days and medical insurance , we make due with what we have left . If the D.N.R. lost those benifits like the rest of us have it wouldn't go broke either .

D.N.R "Buy out " packages for early retirement , what a joke , The working man gets a " bye , your out " package .
Michigan is in it's own depression and dag-nab-it the D.N.R. can do its part just like the rest of us do .
Make due with what it has and live on a budget .
You want more people purchasing hunting and fishing licenses , make it worth our while , streamline all those regulations and make Michigan someplace people would want to spend their money in , period !
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