Assault on fishing rights

[walleyebob]

You make it illegal to fish private water, only poachers will f
ish private waters.[/quote]


So which part of private waters is it that you dont understand?
Definition of private.
1.
a. Secluded from the sight, presence, or intrusion of others: a private hideaway.
b. Designed or intended for one's exclusive use: a private room.
2.
a. Of or confined to the individual; personal: a private joke; private opinions.
b. Undertaken on an individual basis: private studies; private research.
c. Of, relating to, or receiving special hospital services and privileges: a private patient.
3. Not available for public use, control, or participation: a private club; a private party.
4.
a. Belonging to a particular person or persons, as opposed to the public or the government: private property.
b. Of, relating to, or derived from nongovernment sources: private funding.
c. Conducted and supported primarily by individuals or groups not affiliated with governmental agencies or corporations: a private college; a private sanatorium.
d. Enrolled in or attending a private school: a private student.
5. Not holding an official or public position: a private citizen.
6.
a. Not for public knowledge or disclosure; secret: private papers; a private communication.
b. Not appropriate for use or display in public; intimate: private behavior; a private tragedy.
c. Placing a high value on personal privacy: a private person.

Look I want to fish these waters too, but some of you guys are sounding like you want to live in a perfect communist utopia, where everything is owned by the government and there is no such thing as private land.
Like I said before, the only way these laws will change to the good of everyone is if fishermen and landowners work together, towards a solution that benefits everyone. All I see on here is a bunch of folks that want to access someone elses land. What do the landowners get?
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[walleyebob]

[quote TS30][quote Troll]


As for the arguments of if this law (HB 80 recognizing the public's right to use the water) passed how trashed the streams and rivers would be....go to Idaho and Montana and tell me that happened. It's a joke to even hear that. Sensationalism and blatant lies prevailed with our elected officials. They won't fly with me.[/quote]


Go to Idaho and Montana and look at how much trash there is along the hiways, then come back and compare it to here. Go down to sandy beach and look at all the trash along the river and the beach. Seems like the more secluded a spot is, the more people dont mind leaving just a little garbage. Its not sensationalism when it is your land that you have to keep cleaning up.I have fished and lived in Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, California and Utah. Utah may not be the worst. But real close. Seems like I pick up garbage everywhere I fish. Even at a tiny little pond fifteen miles North of Fish Lake last fall. I couldn't believe this pretty little pond, hidden in the mountains and not along a beaten path, had so much garbage along the shores. I filled three big bags full of crap and hauled it off. Maybe if Sportsman would go out of their way to prove they care about the land, the landowners would have better feelings toward them.Try and look at this issue as if you were the one cleaning up your land and maybe you could see where we need to work with the landowners instead of trying to shove a law down their throats that they understandably have reservations about.
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[sinergy]

[quote doggonefishin]

HB141 wasn't a hoax folks. You guys REALLY did get screwed by your own legislature yesterday.

Carry on with your outrage against phantom threats.[/quote]


Couldn't agree with your more Well Said !!!
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[riverdog]

WB,
You miss one key point the water is not private and never has been. Do a little research on the history of waterways in the United States and especially Utah. The waterways are public, the landowner doesn't own the water. Landowners acting like they owned the waterways were acting illegally to keep people off. They had no more right to keep someone off the waterway than you do to keep people off a public road in front of your property. Doesn't mean anyone has the right to cross your property to reach the waterway or road unless a public easement existed. Yes people that pollute your land from a public waterway or road are a problem. Much more so from those accessing your property from public roads than waterways. You can't close the public road why should you be allowed to close the public waterway. I'm not a legal expert but I've heard from others the Utah Constitution outlines that waterways are public. This is another reason, no matter where you stand on the issue, that this is a bad law. There appears there is a valid argument this law is unconstitutional. So if you want to basically turn public waterways into private you would have to amend the Utah Constitution. It might not hold up in Federal Courts but that is where to start. Given that this wasn't done properly it will waste a lot of money in public legal fees. I feel lawyers are rich enough and I rather my tax dollars not enrich them further because many Utah House and Senate members are ignorant of the issues involved. So while it will take time it likely will not stand long term. If Utah loses it won't be appealed to higher courts because all the Federal precedents for the past 150 years have found seizures of public waterways illegal as well.
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[walleyebob]

I couldnt agree more. We own the waterways and should be allowed to fish them. But, everyone is demonizing the landowners instead of trying to work with them.Like I said before, I have talked with landowners. Let me repeat that for those of you that dont want to hear it. I have talked with landowners.Since this law passed, they have had more problems with garbage and people who tell them they have a right to be on their property. There have been some problems.People dont really understand the law, and some think it gives them the right to access land however they wish.Maybe education is the key. Education for fishermen and education for landowners.This issue will continue and cost everyone a bunch of money.Money wasted over what we consider to be our right. The right to fish public waters. I believe we should be allowed to use our waters, but I also know that altercations between fishermen and landowners have and will continue to happen.We should educate the public about this issue before it comes up again. And try to be better examples for all sportsmen. Only then will the landowners see that we can be trusted.
No matter how this all comes down, there will be landowners that want to exploit our natural resources for their own profit. They will always fight to keep us out. But they are few. In general, folks just dont want people tromping across their land and leaving their gates open.They are the ones that may understand and sympathize with fishermen. The ones that can be swayed to help fight for our rights, instead of fighting hard to keep us out.Education and being an example of everything that is good about being a responsible outdoorsman is what we need. Not just a bunch of whining about "its my right and you cant stop me" attitude. That doesnt help anyone and only serves to make the landowners push back harder.
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[Troll]

If what you say is true, then why didn't land owners get behind HB 80?
HB 80 required fishers to take a course, answer questions and cary a certificate stating that they had done so in order to use their easement? HB 80 required any fisher who wanted to use the easement to know the law and carry proof or be guilty of a misdemeaner.
Were the land owners you talked to aware of that?
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[walleyebob]

I have no idea if they were aware of all the stipulations in HB80 or not. Havent talked to any of them in the last couple months. Winter and such. All I know is that they have a real bad impression of fishermen in general. Easier for them to just avoid the problems they have had by saying no to everyone.
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[sinergy]

If anything you got it backwards Private Landowners not willing to work with Anglers.
HB80 was a good compromise would have benefited all. HB141 was evil in so many ways that only private land money could have influenced the senates decision.

It infringes on our constitutional rights HB141 Ignores the 1937 Adams v. Portage Irrigation case that says that the public's right to use the public water is a right guaranteed by the Utah Constitution

It adds to the down turn of our economy fact that farmers take more public taxes in the form of subsidies. Ignores the fact that the public pays to maintain and stock the public water, including infrastructure, erosion control, and flood mitigation, etc.

If this is what private landowners want then they better believe theres going to be a fight never once in history have Americans allowed foreign or domestic entities infringe upon there constitutional rights
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[GUIDEMAN]

Where can a person find out who voted for HB141 ?
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[giddyup]

Now there is an Assault worth talking about. Post it in bold letters

Assault on America by Internet and media Lobbyist.

The healthcare industry, oil industry, and the financial industry spending millions on internet and media lobbyists and don't forget campaign donations to prevent any kind of healthcare or financial reform. The oil industry sure doesn't want our country moving to alternative energy reducing our dependcy on oil. Theres an army of internet and media lobbyist using scare tactics to spread lies all over the internet, t.v., and the radio. And with an election year its only going to get worse. On cable tv there is the Fox stations pretending to be a news and business network but there not. The republicans went and bought fox and use scare tactics to brainwash people with lies and political agendas. Obamma bashing 24hrs a day its more like republican Jerry Springer. If you go on most internet forums there is an internet lobbyist spreading more anti-Obamma lies. I'm just guessing but, I bet if your hobby was flying model airplanes and you visited a model airplane forum on the internet there would be some guy on there talking about how Obamma is coming after your personal rights to fly your airplane. Not all people who don't like Obamma on the internet are lobbyist most probably are not but, they are definately out there. There are some people who just don't like him and will post anything negative or false and pretend they believe it to be truthful or real which is just as bad. Obamma is trying to pass reforms on the three biggest industys in our nation with the ability to spend billions of lobbyist dollors to stop him he is screwed. On a brighter side if you are out of work, have no morals and don't mind brainwashing people you could probably get a job as an internet lobbyist. I wonder if they have goood health care? I posted a link to a video I found of some already brainwashed people. A couple more years and half the country will be like these people. Or if you want a good laugh there are a couple of posts on this website from about 18 months ago before the election took place.

[url "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJk52ylI3wU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJk52ylI3wU[/url]
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[walleyebob]

Dude, you gotta get out of your basement and quit playing with mommies computer
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[walleyebob]

Whatever. You still dont get it. I didnt get anything backwards. I understand perfectly. I understand the contitutional rights.
Tell me, what do landowners have to gain by letting you on their property?Why should they work with anglers?Do they get free cookies and an atta boy?
I'm done with this issue. Fight with them all you want and lets see how much money we can waste. I will just go about it my way. Treat the landowners with respect and ask permission. I'll be fishing while you are on capitol hill. Have fun.
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[sinergy]

[quote walleyebob] I understand the contitutional rights. [/quote]

If you understand you contitutional rights then why are you siding with Private Land Owners. Whos to say I cant drop a wad of cash a buy a section of Willard bay and say hey F -off get off my water how contitutional is that ?

IT IS A CLEAR VIOLATION OF SEPARATION OF POWERS, MAKING IT IN DIRECT CONTRAST TO THE UTAH CONSTITUTION ARTICLE V SECTION I AND THE IDEALS OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS.

IT WAS DONE IN SECRET, AND THE SUBSTITUTE BILL CAME OUT AFTER IT PASSED COMMITTEE AND WAS SPRUNG ON THE HOUSE FOR A QUICK DEBATE.

APPROVES A POLITICAL AND CONTROVERSIAL PROCESS OF ADDING WATERS TO A LIST THAT CAN BE ACCESS BY THE PUBLIC AND SAYING WHAT WATERS CAN’T BE ACCESSED BY THE PUBLIC.

NEGATES OVER 100 YEARS OF WATER LAW IN UTAH.

FLIES IN THE FACE OF 3 UTAH SUPREME COURT DECISIONS SEPARATED BY OVER 70 YEARS DECLARING AND DEFINING THE PUBLIC’S EASEMENT IN STATE WATERS.

REFUSES TO BALANCE TWO COMPETING CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, BUT UNCONSTITUTIONALLY DISREGARDS ONE IN THE FAVOR OF THE OTHER.


[quote walleyebob] Tell me, what do landowners have to gain by letting you on their property?[/quote]

Creates a pool of money that is distributed to private land owners to supplement the cost of easements and clean up of there land.

absolves a property owner of liability for certain conduct in connection with
27 recreational uses

The Division of Wildlife Resources shall create a free public education program to
inform the public of this chapter's provisions concerning access to public waters and private beds.

prohibits certain conduct on public waters;



[quote walleyebob] Fight with them all you want and lets see how much money we can waste..[/quote]

More money will be wasted in civil suits against private land owners

scenario #1 Wreck-less kid jumps the fence of a neighbors yard gets bitten by your dog many cases and jury's have cited with the wreck-less kid.

Scenero #2 your cattle has broken free of its fence a driver hits your cow you are partially responsible for the damages and a involved in a civil suit.


[quote walleyebob] I will just go about it my way. Treat the landowners with respect and ask permission. [/quote]

And if landowner denies you access just for the fact he want to be a jerk Another reason for him to deny you access is now liable if you get injured on his property.


[quote walleyebob] I'll be fishing while you are on capitol hill. Have fun.[/quote]

Maybe now but HB141 creates a foundation for Private Landowners to segregate Private waters from the public. So say Joe Smoe to buys a huge chunk of land near you favorite fishing spot say the water flows on his property that are is not consered private and no longer fishable to the public.

One example many individuals report fishing the upper Provo River with their children and grandchildren, but it is now blocked by Victory Ranch.
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[KJFN]

I think this has been a good discussion! We all need to do a better job of being aware of what is happening both in Washington and at home to protect our rights and being better stewards of the land. That being said I think it is time to get back to fishing and lighten up! Best wishes to all of you BFTers!

Check out the Fishing Comics![url "../../../comics/"][img]../../../comics/uploads/2-83.jpg[/img][/url]
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[sinergy]

Head over to the fly fishing section TS30 has posted a link to the PDFs of the total vote count and who voted.
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[dubob]

[font "Comic Sans MS"][#800000][size 4]Here's the link: [url "http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2010/status/hbillsta/hb0141s2.001s.txt"]Vote tally[/url][/size][/#800000][/font]
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