How do you rig

[Fishinguru]

Hey,
Was wondering how others rig their fly rod when using two nymphs and fishing on a river?
My current setup uses a 9 foot 5X tapered leader. At the very end of the leader I use the forbidden over hand knot that acts as an anchor for my split shots. 6 or so inches above that i tie a 4 inch strand of tippet for one fly. (not sure what knot its called but you lay the line and tippet parallel to each other, make a loop, wrap line around back and front of loop and then bring line and tippet through your loop twice). 6 inches above that comes another strand of tippet for my second fly. My strike indicator is roughly 4 inches down from my fly line.

Was shown this way to prevent lots of flies being lost. If my split shots get stuck and I lose them it beats losing the flies. Also, I don't have to continually adjust my indicator to fix my fly depth. I just add or subtract some weight until the indicator tics every 2 or so feet. Comments? Setups? =]
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[sinergy]

Sweet looks good If im not mistaken they call that rig a Provo Bouncer depending on who you ask.

Quick tip if you like fishing that rig gets some P-line evolution or some other small diameter line and rigg it up the same.

Since presentations dont matter when deep water nymphing no need to use expensive tapered leaders save those for dries.



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[Fishinguru]

oooohh thanks for the tip about the line. That sure beats spending 10 bucks on a 3 pack of leaders every few trips. These materials start to add up. I'm always wanting something lol
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[riverdog]

Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get these setups on our relatively small streams in Utah. I tie a fly on and fish. If it takes more than a few minutes to tie this I'm already catching fish the majority of the time your still tying it. How do you adjust these set ups to fish the variety of conditions you need to cover on our small waters outside the Green. Do you only fish a few large relatively constant depth areas over and over, missing out on most of the fish most days? Do you spend time and adjust the setup over and over? Or do you just fish with this even though it's not really suitable for much of the areas that may hold fish on a given day. How accurate are you casting with this with all that weight and flies going in different directions. Can you get it within an inch or 2 of the spot you want 90+% of the time or do you just settle for crappy casting or fish areas where accuracy isn't important. Have you compared how many fish and how much fun you have fishing with this directly to simple fly fishing where your fly should be almost constantly in action covering a wide variety of areas that could be holding fish. Are you comfortable with all that on the end of your line doing snake rolls on either side of you when trees and brush around you make that the best casting technique? How often does your line get tangled.Why do you lose flies to begin with? Mine almost always wear out.
Don't get me wrong sometimes if I have a 1000+ cfs river I do find a second fly and maybe some additional weight will improve the catch rate. But even then I experiment as it's certainly not a given as all these setups affect the way the flies drift.
Fishinguru this isn't directed at you only, so others please feel free to chime in and enlighten my stubborn ignorance on this subject.
I think you're describing a surgeon's knot for tippet to leader. When fishing one nymph I don't use tippet as tying it on only serves as a weak spot. I could be wrong but I think the surgeon knot is something like 70% as strong as the tippet when tied correctly. If you use a 5X tippet you'll be about the strength of a 7X leader. Almost all terminal fly knots are much stronger than that ( 85-100% strength).
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[sinergy]

The Provo bouncer is well known rig it was featured in Fly Fishermans mag at one time and if tied correctly its full adjustable to suit any dept of water river or still water.

When fishing it on a river water hauling it up stream is the best method of casting and can be pretty accurate of the 2inch spot. But I think that more to the ability of the fly fisherman than the rig.

Yes it does take a bit longer to tie then just tying a fly to your line but as everyone knows in order to get to the bigger fish you have to get down to were there holding.
weighted rigs are a proven method of doing this.

Also if you fishing 1000+ cfs river you definitely need to fish with weight or move to a slower spot. []

As far as tangling goes I rarely tangle my flies in a tandem rigg and consistency fish 2 two flies with no issue dry or nymphing. Tandem riggs allow you to fish 2 depths of the water column at the same time. Whether it s be surface and subsurface, or subsurface an bottom bouncing.

But to each his own everyone has a method to this madness and everyones entitled to there preference. []

Quick question you say you dont use tippet when fishing one nymph what do you do when you line comes too short ?
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[Fishinguru]

wow excellent post riverdog. Through my relatively shallow experience in fly fishing I will try and answer some of these questions and hopefully learn something.

This setup takes a little bit longer for me to setup since I'm tying more than one fly which equates to double the knotts. I have only fly fished on the lower Provo. I don't see any heartache adding or subtracting a few split shots to adjust my depth. I try and fish the same depth of water the majority of the time. This doesn't hinder the areas that I cover. Fish like the deeper more concealed parts so that's where I try and fish. As far as accuracy, shit I just hope my fly goes out about 45 degrees up river from me and I don't catch any trees behind me. But really the holes I fish accuracy doesn't matter as much for me so yes I guess you could say I fish areas where accuracy isn't as important. I don't think I'm missing out on "most" fish most days. I agree the more time your flies are in the water the more fish you will catch.

I do get tangles which suck really bad. But having multiple flies directly where the fish are feeding seem to out weigh my mishaps.

You say you just put a fly on and start fishing? No weight? I don't see how this is very productive when the fish are feeding at a specific depth. Just one single beadhead fly at the end of your line won't get down very deep. Depends on the conditions of course. Since I'm a newbie and this is the setup I caught my first fish on, I will continue to use it unless I find something more productive.

Further, Thanks for your post. What type of setup do you use and where do you fish? I'm just happy that I'm catching fish on a fly pole!
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[riverdog]

Hey Sinergy,
When you says it's fully adjustable what % of the time does that take if you want to hit a handful of different speeds and depths of water about a handful of times each from a single spot. It seldom takes any adjustment with a single fly. 100% of that time is casting and drifting in a couple minute period of time. Then I can walk up and hit a new spot start all over again. In an outing of fishing a small river with variable condition interspersed I can repeat this hundreds of times without the need for any adjustment most of the time. The time you lose with the fully adjustable aspect is time not fishing and not catching. My point is do you really thing this rig will be able to make up for that on the typical small stream we have in Utah. Have you compared catch rates? When I do the single fly almost always outfishes this rigging overall whether I'm using it or someone else is using it with me. When my leader comes up short a buy a new one for nymphing and use the shortened one in a different application. I don't understand saving money on leaders as I will catch hundreds of fish before it's shortened much. Probably works out to less than a penny a fish ( much less than cost of flies) and then I can still use it for dries where tippet serves a purpose other than saving money. I just rather fish with a 5X that performs as a 5X than a rig where it's almost as good as as 7X without any other advantage. I guess I splurge a cent per fish to make sure the big ones aren't always the ones to get away by eliminating the weakest link in the system. I know it's a well known system written up in magazines but do you see it perform better here in Utah than simpler systems that are more efficient in keeping the fly in the water. I just don't think I've ever seen it perform better in head to head comparisons on our smaller streams with the exception of schooling whitefish. Stillwater I won't argue with the effectiveness of such rigs as there is a lot less need to spend time adjusting it, no impairment of drift of the flies and the fishing different depths at the same time can be more critical. Stillwater you also don't typically have as many obstacles to overcome casting so one or 2 casting techniques is almost always adequate. On brushy smaller streams limiting your casting techniques like that and most trout will never even see your fly. Maybe we should do a youtube video comparing the 2 methods on various size rivers.
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[riverdog]

I use weighted nymphs typically. You can adjust the weight by using lead or tungsted, single or double beadheads. Tungsted beadhead nymphs are very effective in getting the nymphs down in all but the fastest waters. You can also just carry some shot for the rare times this isn't enough. If you're new start out simple. Master that then try all these other techniques and be creative. It's all been done before even if you think you're doing something new. Maybe that type of rig will be for you but you'll still get to casting accurately and catching fish faster starting out simple. And you can compare what works for where you fish rather than taking a magazine's word for it. Part of the reason I don't use it but on large waters where conditions aren't usually as variable is that I'm probable the most impatient fly fisherman on Earth. If I haven't caught a fish in 5 minutes of starting I find myself looking at my watch and thinking what am I doing wrong. I like to be catching fish and adjusting this rig is time I'm not fishing or catching anything.
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[sinergy]

[quote riverdog] Hey Sinergy,
When you says it's fully adjustable what % of the time does that take if you want to hit a handful of different speeds and depths of water about a handful of times each from a single spot.[/quote]


Adjusting fly to different depths takes relatively no time a simple pull of the fly adjusts the top fly to any depth along the leader. If you look at the picture I posted below Fly "B" or the top fly can be pulled up and down the leader. The bottom fly stays stationary 6 to 12 inches from the bottom again fishing two areas of the water column were one subsurface nymph cant.



[quote riverdog] It seldom takes any adjustment with a single fly. 100% of that time is casting and drifting in a couple minute period of time. Then I can walk up and hit a new spot start all over again. In an outing of fishing a small river with variable condition interspersed I can repeat this hundreds of times without the need for any adjustment most of the time. [/quote]

Your statement is true and similar of the Provo bouncer not sure how you rig your setup but in your scenero were you only fish one nymph sub surface Fly B does exactly the same thing pull fly "B" up the leader and you fishing one of the flies right below the surface. Then you have and added advantage of fishing a second fly bouncing on the bottom.


[quote riverdog]The time you lose with the fully adjustable aspect is time not fishing and not catching. My point is do you really thing this rig will be able to make up for that on the typical small stream we have in Utah. [/quote]

Adjusting the fly takes literally seconds


[quote riverdog]Have you compared catch rates? When I do the single fly almost always outfishes this rigging overall whether I'm using it or someone else is using it with me. [/quote]

To many variables catching fish is determined by the skill of the fly fisherman not the rig

[quote riverdog]When my leader comes up short a buy a new one for nymphing and use the shortened one in a different application. I don't understand saving money on leaders as I will catch hundreds of fish before it's shortened much. Probably works out to less than a penny a fish ( much less than cost of flies) and then I can still use it for dries where tippet serves a purpose other than saving money. I just rather fish with a 5X that performs as a 5X than a rig where it's almost as good as as 7X without any other advantage. I guess I splurge a cent per fish to make sure the big ones aren't always the ones to get away by eliminating the weakest link in the system. [/quote]

Just curious on how you fish with out tippet

[quote riverdog]I know it's a well known system written up in magazines but do you see it perform better here in Utah than simpler systems that are more efficient in keeping the fly in the water. I just don't think I've ever seen it perform better in head to head comparisons on our smaller streams with the exception of schooling whitefish.[/quote]

Actually yes I do see it perform better here in Utah, regardless of the size of the stream Most trout feed subsurface this occurs in the lower third of the water column. Bouncer nymphing style keeps flies suspended close to the bottom, at nose level to the trout, much longer than regular nymphing.

So your saying your unweighted or weighted nymph gets down and stays down in the water column longer the a bottom bouncing rig .? Confused here...


[quote riverdog] On brushy smaller streams limiting your casting techniques like that and most trout will never even see your fly. [/quote]

Water hauling a nymph rig or any rig up stream is a proven technique practiced by many a pro and guide. The water haul eliminates 1. The need to back cast so no worries about the brush. 2. Reduces false casting thus spooking fish 3. If done correctly can be done from the shore no need to wade in the water emphasizing #2

Fishing 2 flies increases the visibility of the flies 100% over fishing 1 fly [cool]

[quote riverdog]Maybe we should do a youtube video comparing the 2 methods on various size rivers.[/quote]

Im Game


Not arguing fishing one nymph cant be successful you tie one on and your off fishing sometimes the simplest ways are the best ways but there are a number of benefits fishing bottom bouncing or tandem setups. Again to "each his own".
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[riverdog]

Hey Sinergy,
I clarified in the other post that I typically use a bh nymphs,typically tungsted when I said I added weight occasionally I meant extra weight. Tungsted tends to keep the fly down bouncing the bottom in all but the fastest currents really well. I guess the stopping between cast and then spending a few seconds adjusting the rig and recasting seems like a lot of time to me over hundreds of holes and thousands of changing conditions. But this may depend not only on your patience, the variability of the river conditions and how much water you cover. Most people fishing this type of rig I see stay and fish an area much longer than I do. This in itself almost always leads to slower catching. There are exceptions of course. There is nothing but the extra time of the many hundred/thousands of times interrupting your casting and fishing to adjust your rig to stop them from moving on like me. Uninterrupted casting and drifting also frequently takes seconds on small streams so it's all relative. One critical issue you didn't address is despite its greater visibility with 2 flies is the quality of the drift offsets strikes considerable resulting in a lot more fish just taking a look. The other thing is we may just fish a different proportion of types of streams. Pro guides certainly tend to take clients mainly fish a very few of our streams that typically are the larger of our relatively small ones. They are places that the masses can fish easily. I only fish these places when there aren't good other options and just avoid them the other 70% of the year. They don't tend to cover large areas on foot. Casting techniques for this type of fishing is not going to be ideal for many other streams they don't visit often.
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[sinergy]

Yes, I agree with your post It does take more time to setup the rig especially on those freezing zub-zero temps in the winter. Thats were Ill just tie on a nymph and im off.


But enough of that winter mumbo jumbo its summer and Im stoked its almost time for HOPPER SEASON woot


Oh and sorry Fishguru didn't mean to Hijack your thread if you have any questions feel free to ask [][][cool][laugh]
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[Fishinguru]

Oh no worries it's cool dude. Just reading what has been posted. Lots of ways to setup your right and fish. This is the reason why I posted this topic. Just wanted to try some other stuff out. Oh and wanted to give my self a little confidence in what I was rigging up. [laugh]
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[OldTroller]

[left]The "overhand knot" is the kiss of death. I use a figure eight not but have not the ability or patience to describe it here.
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[left]I fish a rig a lot like you're describing but vary the amount of weight and the length of leader (distance from fly to indicator) when/where needed.
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[left]I would like to see a one fly set up fished properly I have never seen it done.
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[left]Hey maybe we could all get together and work a section of river all using the same flies and just differing set ups.
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