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Anyone know the thinking behind the regulation - where you must pinch the tail of a fish to obtain the “maximum” length? That’s not how fish swim or look when laid out on a board to measure them ... seems odd to me. It is a pretty trivial matter overall but I was curious if anyone knew why the law is written this way?
I mean, if you really wanted the “maximum” length why not clamp both ends and stretch the fish out too? That is about as natural a thing to do as pinching the tail? [laugh]
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My thoughts are they just allow that so you don't complain if someone pinches the tail together on their fish. I see it as an option and a baseline. I'm sure you don't have to if you don't want to. Pretty hard to pinch a tail as you take a picture at the same time. Unless they're little fish. My arms aren't long enough. Later J
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The tail's fan can vary if left natural, but will always provide a consistent and repeatable result if pinched.
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Pinching the tail when measuring is done so that fishers can keep the most fish that they catch and to provide consistency.
Most regulations have a minimum size, like the browns you are allowed to keep from the Provo river (as an example). Without the tail pinch a person could keep a fish that is not really as big as biologists intended. By having the measurement taken with the tail pinched, there is no doubt of the fishes length if LE checks it.
On the Provo the minimum size is 14". If a fish is measured at it's maximum possible length no matter the amount of flattening, straightening and tail squeezing, then it has been measured at maximum length. If that maximum length is 13 and 7/8 inches, it is not legal to keep. If with all the possible length it is 14 and 1/8, it is legal.
It just takes any guess work out of the equation.
Personally for me, I add a full inch to any minimum length and play it safe.
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[quote SkunkedAgain]My thoughts are they just allow that so you don't complain if someone pinches the tail together on their fish. I see it as an option and a baseline. I'm sure you don't have to if you don't want to. Pretty hard to pinch a tail as you take a picture at the same time. Unless they're little fish. My arms aren't long enough. Later J[/quote]
I agree with it being difficult to get a picture, alone, while pinching a fish tail too. But the way the regulations read I do not think it is an option in terms of figuring out if your fish is of legal length..
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[quote Charina]The tail's fan can vary if left natural, but will always provide a consistent and repeatable result if pinched.[/quote]
I could argue just as easily if you lay a fish flat on the ground and measure its length that you’ll get just as much consistency as when doing that while pinching the tail. What’s the difference really? In terms of consistency?
The length can vary when pinched too, over pinch or under pinch and you won’t obtain the crucial “maximum length” verbage in the regs. You have to pinch it just right. I don’t think the majority of anglers are pinching to the precise maximum length they just pinch the tail, more or less, and measure the length? That’s what I used to do before reading the regs again and realizing it isn’t as simple as I had previously thought.
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[quote Troll]Pinching the tail when measuring is done so that fishers can keep the most fish that they catch and to provide consistency.
Most regulations have a minimum size, like the browns you are allowed to keep from the Provo river (as an example). Without the tail pinch a person could keep a fish that is not really as big as biologists intended. By having the measurement taken with the tail pinched, there is no doubt of the fishes length if LE checks it.
On the Provo the minimum size is 14". If a fish is measured at it's maximum possible length no matter the amount of flattening, straightening and tail squeezing, then it has been measured at maximum length. If that maximum length is 13 and 7/8 inches, it is not legal to keep. If with all the possible length it is 14 and 1/8, it is legal.
It just takes any guess work out of the equation.
Personally for me, I add a full inch to any minimum length and play it safe.[/quote]
Using a factor of safety of 1 inch is a wise practice.
I guess my argument is I don’t think there is any more consistency really in pinching vs. not. As stated above, depending on how hard or vigoursly you pinch the tail you might get a length of 1/4” or more off from the length of someone else who pinched more or less than you did. The way the law is written says to pinch to obtain the maximum length - easy enough to understand. Over pinch or under pinch though and you are not measuring the “maximum length”.
It just seems like an odd step to me and I was wondering if anyone knew what the reasoning was for the regulation. If it were up to me and clearly it is not, the length of a fish would be the length when you lay it flat on the ground and measure its length. That is the length of the fish you caught. Pinching the tail adds an arbitrarily decided extra amount of length. Like say you caught a record Tiger Muskie that was 60” while sitting in the lake and 60” laying flat on your boat ... why pinch the tail and say the fish you caught was 62”? Am I the only one who thinks that’s odd???
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99% of the time, anywhere else and for anything else... someone asks you for the length of an object, at work, of wherever... you lay the object down or secure the object and you measure the length.... you don’t stretch the object out to make it longer or contract the object to make it shorter... you simply measure the length of the thing as it lays. That makes the most logical sense with measuring a fish too?
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Sorry I wasn't tracking with what you were talking about. I'm thinking contests and record fish not keep and release regs. So it's probably about consistency and having a standard that works repeatedly for them to go with. Guess I don't keep enough fish to even worry about it myself. Only fish the berry a couple times a year so everywhere else I fish doesn't have the regulation. Later J
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If I remember right the rules for the catfish contest say the length should be measured with a pinched tail. I have yet to see a photo where it's done that way. What's the story there?
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Story is it will count if you pinch the tail, but it's not very practical to pinch a tail and still be able to take a photo at the same time... It's sort of stretching your fish and most just go with the natural lay of the fish and call that good... We aren't a high dollar prize organization, so we don't get very strict or serious about having to have the very last inch out of our fish...There's a lot of fish that fall an eighth inch short of a mark, that could be longer if someone held the tail pinched, but most call it good without having to try and stretch it out. I guess if there were two of you, so one could hold the fish and pinch the tail, while the other took the photo, it could work, but most of the time fishing alone, you can't do that... Later J
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Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense to me. As if whether my fish is 23 15/16 or 24" makes any real difference!
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Well we all like our bragging rights to be as good as they can so i'd pinch that last 1/16 of an inch, but if it was 23 and 5/8" I wouldn't squeeze 3/8" out of it. But that's just me. Later J
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[quote Gemcityslayer][quote Charina]The tail's fan can vary if left natural, but will always provide a consistent and repeatable result if pinched.[/quote]
I could argue just as easily if you lay a fish flat on the ground and measure its length that you’ll get just as much consistency as when doing that while pinching the tail. What’s the difference really? In terms of consistency?
The length can vary when pinched too, over pinch or under pinch and you won’t obtain the crucial “maximum length” verbage in the regs. You have to pinch it just right. I don’t think the majority of anglers are pinching to the precise maximum length they just pinch the tail, more or less, and measure the length? That’s what I used to do before reading the regs again and realizing it isn’t as simple as I had previously thought.[/quote]
So, your argument goes something along the lines that the "best" method is not perfect, therefore we should ignore it, and just use the other method (ignoring that the "other" method is far less precise and induces variability)?
There is an apex of maximum reach obtained in pinching a tail, that is not at all difficult to achieve, and without question is the most repeatable and consistent method of measurement. Do you want a CO taking your strawberry cut that you just laid down to get to 22 1/4 to measure it with a more fanned tail (after it dies and no longer has muscle tone) and cite you as its under 22? The reg protects the fishermen as well as sets a standard to remove ambiguity in the proper method.
Perhaps you have a more precise, repeatable, and verifiable method to propose? I guarantee you it is NOT just laying the fish and letting whatever forces on the tail that happen to exist exert their effect.
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I think I've laid out my argument fairly well above so I'm not going to bring up any old points...
I'd be curious to know if anyone knows if this is how the law has always been in Utah? Or can someone remember when it was changed to this? (Just curious)
Anyhow like I said, this is really a pretty trivial matter overall I'm not going to lose sleep over this regulation. Just thought it was worth a discussion maybe.
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I never target fish that have such tight length requirements (Trout, Cutthroats, etc), but for the 19 years I've been here in Utah, as far as I can remember the pinching the tail has always been in the Fishing Guide (Proclamation) that is produced every year.
No one really cares too much how long or short a Carp or a Mud Cat is. And there isn't any size limits on Channel Cats. Most of us catch, photo, and release most of our fish, with the exception of a few kept for making tacos or the occasional Carp for cut bait. [sly]
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[#0000FF]After all of the previous "discussion" I just gotta toss in my 1 cent worth...with inflation. Pinching the tail can work for or against you...depending on whether you are trying to get extra length for legal size...or if you are ruled out of the slot where slot limits apply. Yes, it has been around a long time in Utah. But so have a lot of outdated notions.
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[#0000FF]There are a lot of salt water fish...in different states...that are subject to the "fork in the tail" measurement. To me, that is the least ambivalent way to measure a fish.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Then there is the story about the good ol' boy who walks into a bar in Texas and brags he just caught a "10 incher". A recent Texas transplant hooted and hollered "A ten incher? That ain't so much." To which the Texan replied "Hey boy, down here we measure our fish between the eyes."[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Also gotta wonder about the tail pinching thing and the MeToo movement. If you pinch the tail of a female fish are you gonna join Weinstein and Cosby?
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pinching the tail isn't for more or less length it is for consistency , and so there is no doubt of where or how measurements are taken
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[quote TubeDude][#0000FF]….
[#0000FF][b]Also gotta wonder about the tail pinching thing and the MeToo movement. If you pinch the tail of a female fish are you gonna join Weinstein and Cosby?
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Good point, TubeDude!
If that doesn't end tail pinching, then the "eliminate two regulations for every new one" certainly will.
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