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[quote RockyRaab]Okay...another short story.
I was trolling on Willard when my lure suddenly stopped vibrating. "Weed" I thought, and reeled in. Rather than a weed, I had snagged a 3" shad.
I was tempted, I admit. But I dutifully removed it and tossed it back into the water, where it kicked feebly. I had just turned my kayak back on course when I heard KERSPLOOSH. I looked back to see spreading waves - and no floating shad.[/quote]
Rocky you are a hard core stickler!
TD, as much time as you have spent on the water I am sure you have had plenty of opportunity’s like this. How have you reacted when a perfect little bait sized fish ended up in your tube,, and you know there is a big “finicky” bass lurking near by that has refused all your offerings.
Now be honest. 
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This whole discussion has been pretty interesting. I think a lot about when we could fish with live waterdogs (tiger salamanders) and how fun that was. They certainly worked great. But the laws changed and we can't use them anymore. Oh well.
would your catch rate go up using live minnows? Sure, in some instances they would.
As a fly angler by choice, the whole point of fly fishing is to use an artificial fly to entice a fish. Many fly anglers attempt to "match the hatch". We use hoppers in the summer when grasshoppers are out and hopping into the water. We try to mimic what fish are actively feeding on. Sometimes I feel like that is cheating.
The real test in angling is not to present something that the fish already wants to hit. The real test of an anglers skill is to present something the fish doesn't want, but you entice it to take it anyway.
The discussion here, from my perspective, is all dependent upon an anglers preference of bait. Unfortunately there are other factors (native fish species) that prevent anglers from using a specific [live] bait, and for very good reason. I don't see that changing any time soon simply because people want to fish with a bait to make things easier.
Lake Powell is a pretty good example of rules and regulations changing when a real need is presented to help maintain and manage the fishery. Most waters in Utah have bag limits in place for sportfish. Due to a need to help sustain a fishery, rules were changed to remove the limit on stripers -- too help maintain their population. Further, additional rules were changed to allow the use of stripers as bait and chum. Again, these were changed to help maintain the striper population. We see this all the time.
So, my questions regarding the use of live fish as bait from the water you catch them in, are:
A. Is there a legitimate benefit to the sportfish population / management plan that would increase by allowing the use of live bait fish foud in that water?
B. Does that perceived benefit out weigh the risks associated with potential illegal transportation and release of said live bait fish to another nearby water?
The decision to use live bait fish cannot be made simply because anglers could catch more fish by using them.
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[#0000FF]"What if" laws tend to punish or restrict the law-abiding majority in an effort to curtail the lawless minority. And guess what. The offenders continue to ignore the laws anyway...and those who would benefit by looser restrictions continue to do without.
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TD -- aren't all laws "what if" laws?
Open container: what if someone drinks while driving?
DUI: what if someone drives under the influence?
Artificial only: what if someone fishes with nightcrawlers, cheese, or salmon eggs?
Speed regulations vs. live bait fish regulations:
Benefit: If I drive faster I'll get there sooner.
Risk: driving faster may endanger yourself and other motorists / pedestrians.
Benefit: if I use live bait I'll catch more fish.
Risk: new species introductions present a risk to other fish, both sport and non-sport fish.
you talk, and talk, and talk -- but never get anywhere because you have no valid arguments. Give us a risk analysis on using live bait fish. Pros and cons. What are some reasons to use and the risks associated with them. Lets have an intelligent conversation about this.
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"you talk, and talk, and talk -- but never get anywhere because you have no valid arguments. Give us a risk analysis on using live bait fish. Pros and cons. What are some reasons to use and the risks associated with them. Lets have an intelligent conversation about this."
[#4040FF]Hey, if I approached fishing from a purely scienterrific standpoint...and removed the emotion and fun from it...'twouldn't be no more reason to fish.[/#4040FF]
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[#4040FF]That being said, I am not entirely without some input and eddication from fisheries biologists from several states. I am aware of most of the reasons pro and con for and against using live minnows. And those reasons and arguments change from state to state and biologist to biologist.[/#4040FF]
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[#4040FF]Obviously, one of the big reasons for curtailing the use of baitfish...especially from other waters...is to prevent the spread of the nasty fish diseases. Some of them have only become factors in recent years but all should be avoided if possible. And, of course there is a good argument against the introduction of any species that might upset the ecology or affect any part of the life cycle of a more desirable species (like hatchery pets).[/#4040FF]
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[#4040FF]But if those considerations are not considerations...as in being able to use live minnows captured in the waters you fish...then it boils down to "what if". What if a doofus angler transports the minnows to another water...even if conditions are essentially the same as where they were obtained? (Like Strawberry to Scofield) Or what if they are transported to already messed up systems like Utah Lake? Where's the potential harm...even to June Suckers? And why not be able to use whole live small white bass in Utah Lake? They are not protected by limits and wholesale reduction is encouraged.
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[#4040FF]The best example I can think of...for "what if" laws...is the new Utah blood alcohol limit of .05. Do the legislators really believe they will deter the folks who routinely get blasted and then get behind the wheel? I doubt it. Although the law just recently became active there have been remarkably few impairment arrests in which blood alcohol levels were not above the old mark of .08. And there continue to be horrendous accidents caused by drivers who are substantially greater than that.[/#4040FF]
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[#4040FF]I do not wish to be able to use live minnows just to flout the law. I have countless personal experiences from around the country in which the use of live minnows vastly outproduced using dead ones...or any kind of flies or lures. In simple terms, if it helps catch more fish and enjoy the day of fishing more then I'm down widdat. But, lest there be any misunderstanding, I am also sensitive to the potential for misuse and problems which could be created by unlimited use of live minnows.[/#4040FF]
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[#4040FF]In short, I would love to be able to use live minnows. But I accept that I now live in Utah and that I must set my watch back about a hundred years.[/#4040FF]
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[quote TubeDude]The best example I can think of...for "what if" laws...is the new Utah blood alcohol limit of .05. Do the legislators really believe they will deter the folks who routinely get blasted and then get behind the wheel? I doubt it. Although the law just recently became active there have been remarkably few impairment arrests in which blood alcohol levels were not above the old mark of .08. And there continue to be horrendous accidents caused by drivers who are substantially greater than that.[/b][/quote]
Why does a picture of Jim Accosta standing in front of a border wall stating "nobody is trying to cross the border here. Why do we need this wall?" keep entering my mind??
thanks for the reply. Amid all that fluff, I got this:
A. I'd like to use live white bass at Utah Lake.
B. I'd like to use live chubs at Strawberry.
C. I'd like to use live chubs at Scofield.
as for A: Have you taken a proposal to the RAC? My personal recommendation would be to give them more than just "I want to catch more fish, and using live white bass is the answer". I would definitely encourage including some solution that would ensure that live fish are not transported away from the lake. Good luck.
B & C: chubs are not a desired species in either reservoir. In both instances, chubs have proved historically to be quite the problem in both. Current management strategies are in place to prevent chub populations from thriving. Why on earth would we want to allow (encourage??) people using live chubs in those lakes?!
D: Tiger Salamanders. I propose that we petition the State to end the banned use of live salamanders / waterdogs. They do not present the issues with native fish species or disease concerns. I'm with you on this one.
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[quote TubeDude][#0000FF]"What if" laws tend to punish or restrict the law-abiding majority in an effort to curtail the lawless minority. And guess what. The offenders continue to ignore the laws anyway...and those who would benefit by looser restrictions continue to do without.
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Huh? I am not following this line of thinking. Aren't all laws basically "What if?" laws? Look at fishing regulations, for example...don't we have rules governing how many fish people take home to prevent overharvest? Isn't that a "What if?" scenario? Shouldn't the harvest regulations just allow whatever harvest you or I deem acceptable then? Aren't harvest regulations just punishing us as law-abiding citizens? What about tackle restrictions? Like fly and lure only? Or, size restrictions like slot limits? Don't they also punish the majority of anglers and benefit the few who break the laws anyway? Don't such restrictions have their place and value for the benefit of fisheries?
Basically, you are ok with the law saying fish shouldn't be moved from one water to another water (isn't that a "what if?" law?) but not the rule that makes it more difficult to move fish. So, which "What if?" laws are ok and which are not? I mean isn't the first law regarding the movement of live fishes from one water to the next about what if the transported fish establish a viable population?
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"B. I'd like to use live chubs at Strawberry.
C. I'd like to use live chubs at Scofield."
[#0000FF]Wrong. I don't fish either lake. Too many stupid trout and not enough good species.[/#0000FF]
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The summary of wormbob's position A thru Z: You're against live bait.
You make good points about transportable diseases and pests like veligers. But regulations could be written to prohibit moving any bait or bait water from its home lake. Other than that issue, I don't see any problem with allowing the use of live bait. Catching live minnows to use as bait removes those individuals from the lake's inventory, it doesn't add.
That's as far into this debate as I'm going to get.
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But what about the scenario laid out in post # 21?
I am pretty sure everybody posting here picks and chooses which laws or regulations they are going to abide by on a daily basis.
Almost impossible to get though a day with out being in violation of something.
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[quote RockyRaab]
You make good points about transportable diseases and pests like veligers. But regulations could be written to prohibit moving any bait or bait water from its home lake. Other than that issue, I don't see any problem with allowing the use of live bait.
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Reminds me of the rumor of Mary Todd Lincoln being asked, "Other than that how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?". That is a very large, "Other than that issue..."
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""TD, as much time as you have spent on the water I am sure you have had plenty of opportunity’s like this. How have you reacted when a perfect little bait sized fish ended up in your tube,, and you know there is a big “finicky” bass lurking near by that has refused all your offerings. Now be honest. "
[#0000FF] Busted. Most of us who fish in perchified waters have had aggressive little tykes wrap their lips around a hook point and hitch a ride to the top. See the attached picture of a "15 incher". And there have been enough times that the trip to the surface has been interrupted by a big nasty predator that it is no big surprise.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF] The way I apply the laws against not using live bait is that there is no law that says just how fast I have to retrieve a small fish I have hooked. And if some stupid bass chooses to contest ownership of that foolish little fishie...well, I can't be responsible for what happens to him. It's all on him...or her.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF] A few years ago...when Jordanelle still had a lot of perch and some hefty smallies, it was quite common to experience having small perch snarfed by big smallies on the way in. I won't name names but I know of one formerly active BFT member who "fudged" a little on one day in Rock Cliff arm and caught several smallies that may have been records. Law abiding citizen that he is, however, he kissed them all and sent them back down.[/#0000FF]
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I'll contribute to the original request for fun live minnow experiences......and mine is here in Utah!
I took the kids fishing several years ago to Newton reservoir to do some perch jerking. The perch fishing at the dam was fast and furious for 4-8" perch and my little girls were loving it. While my oldest daughter was reeling in a 6" perch a musky exploded on it just as she was about 2 feet away from the bank with it. She screamed, but held on and I started helping her. I thought that the musky would let go of the perch for sure, but it kept hanging on, so she settled in for the long haul. To make a long story short, we ended up landing that musky because the perch was down its gullet and the line was wrapped up in its head and gills a bit ( it must have rolled a bit and tangled itself).
So....my daughter caught a 36" musky on a "live minnow" in Utah by complete accident.....and loved every terrifying moment of it. We have had this happen several times since, but never landed another that way.
Mike
P.S. I wish we could use live minnows harvested in the waters we are fishing from, but it's not that big of a deal to me. I've fished many states with live bait and can't think of too many times that it would have been a deal breaker to not have them....just easier fishing when we did have them.
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Good story. I may have wrestled the some tiger for a small largemouth.
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Good fishing to all. Hue
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Not exactly unheard of to have a tiger muskie chomp down a runt crappie you're reeling in at Pineview, either.
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Well, I'm gonna go old school on this one and hope some of you will join me?
Page 42 of the 2019 Fishing guidebook asks for any requests for changes to the rules to be submitted in three easy ways.
One of the three easy ways is to Mail your idea to:
Sport Fisheries Coordinator
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
P.O. Box 146301
Salt Lake City,Utah 84114-6301
I will suggest the idea of allowing the use of live minnows in the same body of water that the minnows were captured in.
Anyone else in?
I will reimburse the cost of your stamp!
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[#0000FF]I have lobbied for this change for years...one on one with several DWR biologists. And I have also brought it up at RAC meetings. But all I have gotten is rolling eyes and all the standard rhetoric on why it can't be done.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Thankfully, there seems to be more openness these days about soliciting input from the angling public. We finally got them to okay the use of corn...and the first time I brought that up at a RAC meeting I thought I was going to be lynched.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Your suggestion to mail in a suggestion is noted. But for we of the digital world it will be easier and possibly more effective to reply to the annual survey posted online by DWR in May. Also from the page you suggested in the Guide Book:
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[#0000FF][#000000][size 2]3. Share your idea while completing
the Fishing Proposals survey. There
will be a blank field at the end of
the survey where you can submit
ideas. The survey will be available at
wildlife.utah.gov/fisheries-surveys.html
by the middle of May 2020.[/size][/#000000]
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I plan on mentioning it there also.
I guess I was hoping that sometimes a handwritten note would be taken more seriously. You know how grandma would prefer a card versus an email thanking her for the $5 birthday check...
On a side note, I have not tried corn yet but I intend to.
I fish for kokes a lot but just got addicted about four years ago. I have always had Berkeley maggots at my disposal, which work great, but am going to put the maggots and corn head to head this year to see if one outfishes the other.
Fun times ahead!
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[#0000FF]I did not mean to imply that one method was better than another. If we want to get the attention of those who craft the regulations we should take advantage of any options open to us. But I have noticed the past couple of years that DWR seems to be making more of an effort to solicit input from us lowly fisherfolk. And I have observed that they really do pay attention to the surveys. That response is a big part of the midyear discussions to clarify subject which should be on the schedule for further review and ultimately to present at the next RAC meeting.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]About corn. Even though I was likely the one who got things simmering a few years ago, it was most likely the koke heads who finally got corn approved on waters where they want to use it for tipping their hootchies. (sounds naughty) And even though I have used corn for carp and other species in the past, I have not used it since it was legalized. My only "dog in the hunt" was wanting it to be legal for folks who wanted the best way to catch carp. It is a great bait for teaching kids how to catch and battle larger fish...carp.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Corn vs Gulp goodies? I doubt you will find a universal answer. Those who pursue kokes seem to find that some days it is one...other days t'other. Of course there are a lot of factors that can help influence that on any given day. If you are not fishing the right colors...at the right depth...and the right speed...it doesn't matter as much what you are using to tip your trinkets.
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