Utah Perchology

[TubeDude]

We have been having some good chit chat on perch...in the thread on Willard Perch.  Have had some questions and discussions on related topics...of the history of perch in Utah, etc. 

I don't claim to be the definitive expert on this subject.  I do have a bit of exposure.  But it might be fun to open this up to anyone else who wants to post perch porn from the past...or to share observations or insights on the subject.

[dubob]

We have been having some good chit chat on perch...in the thread on Willard Perch.  Have had some questions and discussions on related topics...of the history of perch in Utah, etc. 

I don't claim to be the definitive expert on this subject.  I do have a bit of exposure.  But it might be fun to open this up to anyone else who wants to post perch porn from the past...or to share observations or insights on the subject.

Here's my porn:

As stated in that other thread - my limit is 20.  

[Kent]

In the 50s and 60s (yes, I'm getting old), Strawberry (if my memory serves me well) and Scofield (for sure) were full of perch.

[TubeDude]

In the 50s and 60s (yes, I'm getting old), Strawberry (if my memory serves me well) and Scofield (for sure) were full of perch.

You are keewrecked.  I was invited on a fish scoop expedition when Strawberry was poisoned in September 1961.  The rotenone brought all the dead fish to the surface but did not render them inedible for human consumption.  The surface was a conglomerate of several species...including yellow perch.  

No personal experience with Scofield but I had heard there were also perch in there before their first treatment.

One other Utah water that formerly had perch was Gunnison reservoir...on the San Pitch River.  It was not very big and fairly shallow, but it had some big perch, largemouths and catfish.  Today it is just a seasonal breeding pond for carp...being drawn down to nothing every year by the water users.

I suspect there have been quite a few wet spots around the state that have had perch for a greater or lesser amount of time.

[fish_fear_me2]

We have been having some good chit chat on perch...in the thread on Willard Perch.  Have had some questions and discussions on related topics...of the history of perch in Utah, etc. 

I don't claim to be the definitive expert on this subject.  I do have a bit of exposure.  But it might be fun to open this up to anyone else who wants to post perch porn from the past...or to share observations or insights on the subject.

There are still perch in Deer Creek but I remember back in the 50s and 60s when you had a hard time finding a place on shore wher there werent a bunch of dead perch on shore. Back then not a lot of fishermen appreciated perch. They could be caught by the bucket full. Many were left to rot on shore by trout enthusiasts.

[lovetofish]

In the 50s and 60s (yes, I'm getting old), Strawberry (if my memory serves me well) and Scofield (for sure) were full of perch.

Back in the 50's up until the time they made the lake larger my parents had a cabin/trailer at Clarks camp at Strawberry. The perch were very plentiful then. But most of the people who had cabins and just day fishermen were after trout. Of all the times I fished it back then I never saw people keep them. Most of the fishermen would fish for trout using a bobber with their bait down about 4 feet this would keep the bait away fromt he perch. Although the lake being a lot smaller they were able to kill all the perch when they poisoned it. Kinda makes you wonder why they were never able to kill all the chubs when they poisoned it the last time.

[Kent]

Kinda makes you wonder why they were never able to kill all the chubs when they poisoned it the last time.

One factor would be the underwater springs.

[TubeDude]

Although the lake being a lot smaller they were able to kill all the perch when they poisoned it. Kinda makes you wonder why they were never able to kill all the chubs when they poisoned it the last time.

Chubs are tougher to completely eradicate than perch.  Perch tend to stay in the main lake and are more likely to be exposed to the rotenone.  Chubs routinely wander up every little trickle and into any protected side channel or backwater.  So there are almost always at least a few juvenile chubs left unscathed by the treatment.  And as soon as they grow bigger they reproduce...starting the cycle all over again.

Some people blame anglers for bringing in live chubs for bait.  While that may be true in some cases, it is more likely that there were some that escaped the treatment.

[Therapist]

An interesting read Pat !! I have always been a warm water fishermen, from the first day I arrived in Utah. I did my share of trout fishing, but in the first 2-3 years after moving here, I was strictly a warm water guy. That is how I met Pat, 40 + years ago fishing for walleye on Utah Lake. Our group of about 6, sometimes 8, were all pretty much warm water fishermen. Perch, Walleye, LMB, Pat's favorite, channel cat, were all pursued with fervor. I have seen the ups and downs of Utah warm water fisheries and would have to say that they are on the rise. I would be wonderful if we could snap our finger and undo the decades of neglect and abuse that have been done to the State's warm water fisheries, but biological systems do not heal quickly and sometimes they don't heal at all !!! Again Pat, nice read, good info !!!

[TubeDude]

An interesting read Pat !!  I have always been a warm water fishermen, from the first day I arrived in Utah.  I did my share of trout fishing, but in the first 2-3 years after moving here,  I was strictly a warm water guy.  That is how I met Pat, 40 + years ago fishing for walleye on Utah Lake.  Our group of about 6, sometimes 8, were all pretty much warm water fishermen.  Perch, Walleye, LMB, Pat's favorite, channel cat, were all pursued with fervor.  I have seen the ups and downs of Utah warm water fisheries and would have to say that they are on the rise.  I would be wonderful if we could snap our finger and undo the decades of neglect and abuse that have been done to the State's warm water fisheries,  but biological systems do not heal quickly and sometimes they don't heal at all !!!  Again Pat, nice read, good info !!!

Thanks Matt.  Lotsa good memories from the past.  Didja like the picture of Rick under Yuba?

[r2u2]

In the late 50's while fishing for trout in the spillway of Pineview, I caught my first Perch. It no doubt came out of Pineview. I had never heard of anyone catching perch up there before, let alone knowing what it was.

In more recent years, as you have mentioned high water, I have seen the Ogden river full of crappie and perch washed out of the res.

Pineview also used to be a pretty good trout fishery. 0500 with a large fly on an October morning would often produce a good meal for my family.

Somethings come and somethings go. Sometimes it's sicking to know of what we once had and have lost. Other times it is pleasing to see the benefits of our DWR and efforts they make to develop a good fishery.

rj

[Therapist]

Yep, I will have to let him know about it ! It never ceases to amaze me on how time flies and how what used to be easy is now so HARD !! Keep up the good work my friend !!!

[Anglinarcher]

This is a great subject, but one that I am almost afraid to join.  LOL, oh well, nothing ventured.....

The yellow perch is native to waters that have consistent weed growth, numerous predators, and eons of symbiotic relationships with predators that kept the populations in balance.

In lakes without sufficient predation perch can and usually do overpopulate.  Pineview is a great example of that, and so is Magic Reservoir in Idaho.  As a youngster I recall the huge perch in Magic, until it overpopulated.  At first the perch were excellent food for the Rainbow trout and Magic was known as a monster Rainbow factory.  But, even though Magic was an irrigation reservoir and spawning weeds were few and far in-between, the Rainbows could not keep up and the perch overtook all food and space and the Rainbow grew slow and 5" perch were the norm.  The State of Idaho would kill it out, someone would put them back in (even bragged about it to a local paper), the bows would grow like weeds again, the perch would overpopulate...... you get the idea.  In short, Rainbow themselves will not keep perch in check.

In lakes with sufficient predation, but lack of weeds, perch cannot maintain their population.  Note that Starvation had great perch but the combination of Walleye and Smallmouth Bass have put a serious hurt on the perch.  After a couple of years of higher water and prolonged weed growth that the perch can use, perch do better, just like Willard when the water stays high longer.  

In a lake like Cascade in Idaho, you have stable water levels, awesome weeds, awesome Smallmouth Bass, a perfect balance.  In short, you have what perch were evolved to live in.

Personally I have never seen fishermen able to impact perch populations.  For example, there is a small pond near Blackfoot Idaho, Rose Pond, that gets very low every winter.  One year it winter killed but not completely, leaving some perch to repopulate.  In a few years we were getting some 9 to 12 inch perch.  Every kid in town fished those perch, every person that loved perch fished those perch, every scout in the county got the fishing merit badge at that lake (LOL), but even with buckets and buckets of perch hauled out, in a few short years the perch were 4" and overpopulated and had to be killed out again.

I respect Pat's opinion, but this time I think the perch equation is a bit more complex.  With limited weed growth to protect the fry in the developing months, with every mouth looking to have perch for dinner (Walleye and Smallmouth Bass, their natural predators, and Wipers and Channel Cats added into the equation) they have very little chance to overpopulate, or for that matter sustain themselves.  In many ways it is like Starvation.

Now, can fishermen tip the scales?  In theory, yes, but in practice, I doubt it.  

The addition of submerged brush in Willard would do more to protect and sustain perch and crappie populations.  Numerous farmers are removing old fruit trees right now and they will simply be burned or placed in a landfill.  They could be sunk in the lake creating cover that will last 50 years (hardwood trees not exposed to air last a long time).

That is not the only solution for sure.  In Magic, I understand that they now have Brown Trout with the Rainbow Trout and Smallmouth Bass a well.  I understand that the perch and predator have now balanced and Magic, though still an irrigation reservoir, is prized for the great multispecies fishery.  Still, consider Deer Creek.  That is a pretty well balanced fishery, but the perch are not what they use to be in the early 80's.  

I bet that Chris will read our concerns, take them very seriously, and will pull his hair out trying to figure out what to do.  Today I have several suggestions, but tomorrow I will have several different suggestions.  LOL  Managing perch in our totally NON-Native conditions is just not the easy.

Good Luck Chris, and thank you for your managing efforts.

[dubob]

Managing perch in our totally NON-Native conditions is just not the easy.

I would say it is right next to impossible, as the Utah history of this fish has shown for decades.  

[Springbuck1]

Lovetofish said: "Most of the fishermen would fish for trout using a bobber with their bait down about 4 feet this would keep the bait away from the perch."

Can anybody explain WHY this would keep a bait away from perch? It's something I do on purpose to catch perch at Mantua/PV/Rockport/Hyrum during the summer.

TubeDude said: Chubs routinely wander up every little trickle and into any protected side channel or backwater.

YES, THEY DO! Inch long chubs, while NEVER where I need them to be when I'm looking for bait, seem to turn up everywhere in the darndest places. I remember once stepping through thin ice covering what amounted to a mud puddle off to the side of a ditch, while duck hunting west of Centerville, and watching THOUSANDS of tiny chubs struggle back off the ice into 5" of water, max.

TubeDude, let me thank you again for all the work you continue to put in on stuff like this, on behalf of all the newer anglers, and the more clueless, like myself. It has been a great help, especially at places like Utah Lake. I really would like to get everything you've ever written and all your maps printed off and in one place. I remember talk about you compiling a book, and if you have, let me know where to send the check.

[TubeDude]

I respect Pat's opinion, but this time I think the perch equation is a bit more complex.  With limited weed growth to protect the fry in the developing months, with every mouth looking to have perch for dinner (Walleye and Smallmouth Bass, their natural predators, and Wipers and Channel Cats added into the equation) they have very little chance to overpopulate, or for that matter sustain themselves.  In many ways it is like Starvation.

Now, can fishermen tip the scales?  In theory, yes, but in practice, I doubt it.  

 Still, consider Deer Creek.  That is a pretty well balanced fishery, but the perch are not what they use to be in the early 80's. 

Great contribution.  Thanks for playing.

I don't claim to be a biologist.  But my personal observations are that the perch population in Willard expands in inverse proportion to the population of wipers and walleyes.  The more hungry predator mouths, the fewer small perch survive to "toadhood".  But in a relatively small population of perch...such as that in Willard...heavy angler harvest can put a dent in it.

Back in the days when Yuba was struggling to return to "normal"...after the big drought ending in 2004...I read a study conducted by fisheries biologists in some state.  (Can't remember where)  The big takeaway I got from it was that walleyes alone accounted for many times more total poundage of perch than that harvested by anglers.  So, as you pointed out, having a balanced predator-prey situation is better overall for keeping a healthy population of larger perch.

Again, a personal opinion, but I think smallmouth introduction was the biggest factor in the perch downturn in Deer Creek.  Until smallies took over feed (crawdads and perch) and habitat from the low but stable population of largemouths, perch were still plentiful and healthy.  The walleyes ate them, but not enough to reduce their numbers by much.  But when the smallies started spawning their young of the previous year...about 5-6 inches...would form small "wolf packs" after the baby perch hatched each year.  The smallies would herd schools of 1" perchlets into corners and then take turns raiding and eating them until they were gone.  As a float tuber I witnessed this process many times...watching thousands of baby perch disappear from the lake before ever having a chance to get bigger. 

And then the larger smallies ate larger perch.    After they mopped up the formerly abundant crawdads around the rocky areas of the lake, they started in on small perch.  One of the best lures for smallies is a perch finish Rapala.  And most of the smallies you catch over about 10" will have perch in their innards.  And, just as in Jordanelle, I have had multiple occasions when one or more smallies were following or attacking small perch I reeled .  Smallies remove far more perch from any water than all anglers combined.

[Therapist]

Regarding the impact of anglers on the perch population. One of the factors that impacts the population is the survival of the YOY ( young of the year). Nature realizes that many of the fry and fingerlings are going to be gobbled up, hence the huge numbers that are spawned each year. By shear numbers, it provides for the survival of the species. Where anglers impact the plan is our impact on the spawning members of the population. Using Yuba as an example. Almost ALL of the Jumbo's that were taken were gravid females. My recollection is that very seldom did we harvest a male, they were too small, under 10 inches, while all of the harvested fish were gravid females. The ratio of males to females in the population is small, you don't need that many male's to fertilize the eggs being laid. Because of this, taking a few, relatively, will not impact the spawning population. However when you start taking thousands of gravid females out of the population, you impact the number of eggs spawned, the number of fry, the number of surviving individuals. You still have the same amount of depredation, natural death, etc, the only variable is the reduced number of eggs spawned and fertilized. I don't know if anyone has ever studied that aspect of perch populations, but I know that many studies have been done on several species of forage fish in the marine environment. We are currently using that data, developed on menhaden, an over fished species in the ocean, to impact the carp population in Utah Lake. We never reached the tipping point due to harvest, however, coupled with habitat problems, low water, lack of vegetation, depredation on the eggs and fry, natural death of fry and eggs, all of these combined I believe DID reach the tipping point and resulted in the crash of the perch population in Yuba. So, over harvest prior to the spawn can have an impact on the population. Perch spawn EARLY, like under the ice sometimes. I mentioned Doug Sakaguchi ( SP) in another post. His project to provide betting spawning opportunities occurred prior to ice out.( he probably was able to do it because it was before they had to spend all their time on the put and take trout issues and SLC did not put the kibosh on it!!!!).

[Springbuck1]

"You still have the same amount of depredation, natural death, etc, the only variable is the reduced number of eggs spawned and fertilized...........So, over harvest prior to the spawn can have an impact on the population."

I don't disagree with any of this, but in Utah it seems that you could have the worlds best, most successful spawn, and the larvae would either starve to death (in a less "rich" lake), hatch bountifully in flooded weeds/trees only to have the lake drawn down so far they have no cover, be born into a drawn down lake with no cover where they can't survive, or even have their eggs left high and dry on vegetation by an early draw down.

[Fisheneer]

Managing perch in our totally NON-Native conditions is just not the easy.

I would say it is right next to impossible, as the Utah history of this fish has shown for decades.  

I would like to disagree with Anglinarcher on principle,   but since he knows I’m pulling his leg, he also knows I agree.  Any species needs three things.  Cover, Feed, and enough room.  Willard and most reservoirs in Utah lack the cover needed.  Chris and crew, you guys are doing an awesome job with trying to establish structure or cover.  My personal favorites are the fruit trees (untrimmed) and the only good use for Russian Olives (the oil based itree will last a very long time if they are not exposed to the air).  While they are looking to stabilize the “boom” and “bust” size cycles, I think  the best option will need to include the establishment of structure.  I personally think that BFT users should see if we could put together a volunteer effort of labor and resources that Chris could use to help make this happen. If money is the issue, maybe we need a “donation” option where we pick a couple of waters at Chris’s or some of the other DWR’s suggestions and adopt it for a year to help get some additional habitat.  With all of the money most of us put into conservation efforts and groups, we should be able to come up with something to help.
Just brain storming.

[Anglinarcher]

Just brain storming.

I like your thoughts, but have experienced a few things in the past that concern me. 

First, lets look at how Money is "managed" in Utah.  Like most states, we have a general fund that every dime is put into.  It does not matter if we donate to the state to for extra structure in Willard, or for extra computers for the schools.  In the end, the legislators make the budgets and they spread it to their favorite causes.  HINT, most legislators don't fish, don't care about Willard, and it appears have limited intentions for schools as well.

A case in point is Idaho.  Their system is about the same as ours.  When they wanted a lottery, the promise was that it would fund the schools.  Truth is that with their existing funding and their lottery cut they would be building schools on every street corner, paving they playgrounds in gold, hiring only the top professors as teachers.  Fact is stranger than though, the fact is that the legislators got the lottery money, and the tax money, and the schools got the same or reduced budgets that they always got (yep, got shafted).  When was the last time you heard of the rich Idaho Schools?  Ya, me neither.

For this to work, we would need to establish a "Friends of Willard" Non-Profit, or a Not-for Profit.  As an independent company, they could "coordinate" with Chris or his equivalent to plan on structure improvements, but the legislature could not tough the funding.  Then Chris, or his ..... could get the permits, do the biology as necessary, and work on any regulatory issues.  Perhaps, with enough arm twisting from the Non-Profit matching state and federal funds might be available.

Once the plans were established, fund raising goals could be established, funds could be raised.  Chris would then step in and coordinate with the non-profit for labor and the structure that was pledged and collected........

Well, you get the idea.  I am not writing a charter here, not the legal mind, but TU and other conversation groups have been doing this to some point, with great success.

Fisheneer, any experience with this?

TubeDude, what is your thoughts on this?

Obviously this does not preclude limit changes, seasons, etc., etc., but if anything is to change, we need to be "Just brain storming."