Gorge Macs Need to Go

[ducksfresh]

Hi Folks,
It is not in my nature to be a town crier. My usual stance is to sit back and watch. I have been fishing the Gorge A Lot for the last 22 years. I spend my summers camped at the Buckboard RV park. I am an avid Kokanee fisherman. The last few years I have tried to do my part by catching and keeping more pups. I made two trips this winter to catch them on the hard water. I teemed up with a friend and entered the Pupulation Tourney and finished 3rd. Not bad for my first ever tournament.

Two weeks ago I fished South Buckboard for pups and caught more than I have ever caught. We were vertical jigging and had schools of pups come by at 30 feet. We thought they may have been kokes, but to our surprise they were pups and they were so aggressive. Of coarse we marked and caught many fish on the bottom in 70' to 90' of water.

The Kokanee are disappearing and it is well documented by studies for years. From what I have read the Macs have to go if we ever want this to be a great Kokanee fishery in the future.

If you care about this fishery you will at least read these two documents. The Utah State University study is dead on regarding the fishery. They forecast what has happened as early as 1992. The other study was produced in 2009. It describes what is happening to our Gorge, with many examples from other great fishery's the Macs have devastated.

Flaming Gorge USU Study
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=investigations+of+forage+fish+and+lake+trout+salvelinus+namaycush&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Western Lake Trout Woes
  WesternLakeTroutWoes2009(3).pdf (Size: 926.03 KB / Downloads: 18)

[liketrolling]

thanks
I have a hard time keeping them are even fishing for them, I don't like eating them and I don't think it is legal to take them home and use them for plant food in the garden.

[Kent]

I read much of the USU study but the link doesn't work for the Western Lake Trout Woes study.

[ducksfresh]

Hi Like Trolling,
I really respect you for your helpful posts. It is amazing how you are so willing to help the fishing community.

As far as the content of my post....Fishing is in not the answer. We won't be able to affect their numbers. It will take much more than that. My hope is to help Tony Valdez start the conversation.

I hope you will at least read the Western Lake Trout Woes study.

Respectfully,
Mike Fresh

---

thanks
I have a hard time keeping them are even fishing for them,  I don't like eating them and I don't think it is legal to take them home and use them for plant food in the garden.

Hi Like Trolling,
I really respect you for your helpful posts. It is amazing how you are so willing to help the fishing community.

As far as the content of my post....Fishing is in not the answer. We won't be able to affect their numbers. It will take much more than that. My hope is to help Tony Valdez start the conversation.

I hope you will at least read the Western Lake Trout Woes study.

Respectfully,
Mike Fresh
  WesternLakeTroutWoes2009(3).pdf (Size: 926.03 KB / Downloads: 11)

[FishfulThinkin]

I know several people who have tried to go target pups at the gorge and had poor success and some even got skunked. The more detailed information that is posted about when, where and how to catch pups will help those guys who can only get there occasionally. It will also help the fishery the more guys who harvest pups. That's a long drive and a lot of gas to go and only catch one or 2 pups but if better intel was provided I think more guys would target them if they knew how to go and fill a cooler. Just my $.02

[ducksfresh]

I know several people who have tried to go target pups at the gorge and had poor success and some even got skunked. The more detailed information that is posted about when, where and how to catch pups will help those guys who can only get there occasionally. It will also help the fishery the more guys who harvest pups. That's a long drive and a lot of gas to go and only catch one or 2 pups but if better intel was provided I think more guys would target them if they knew how to go and fill a cooler. Just my $.02

We use 3/8 oz glow head with red eyes. 4" yamamoto glow curlies tipped with a small piece of sucker or other non-game fish. We vertical jig using the spot lock on my Minn Kota. Target the fish you see on your finder. 70' to 90' of water. Some on the bottom, but lots suspended. We had schools of pups come buy at 30' and attack our offerings. There are literally thousands of pups in the buckboard area.

Here is a link to a very recent KSL Outdoors show on how to catch them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKyx_IPEB9Y

TJ Valdez at Buckboard Marina has a special going now. I think its $100 a day charter chasing the pups.

[Jmorfish]

thanks for that link to the KSL program..guess I missed that one....I'll be up there in early June, hopefully pups and kokes, just can't make the tournaments...but that does sound like fun and a good cause...Guluk...

[Kent]

As far as the content of my post....Fishing is in not the answer. We won't be able to affect their numbers. It will take much more than that. My hope is to help Tony Valdez start the conversation.

I hope you will at least read the Western Lake Trout Woes study.

Respectfully,
Mike Fresh

If fishing is not the answer, what then will make a difference?

[ducksfresh]

As far as the content of my post....Fishing is in not the answer. We won't be able to affect their numbers. It will take much more than that. My hope is to help Tony Valdez start the conversation.

I hope you will at least read the Western Lake Trout Woes study.

Respectfully,
Mike Fresh

If fishing is not the answer, what then will make a difference?

After much more research than I have put into this, including the Western Lake Trout Woes study, (attached here) Tony Valdez's statement to me was "They have to go!". Knowing that his family, especially his son TJ benefits from guiding services chasing the big Macs.

The Western Lake Trout Woes study suggests lots of different methods that have been used at many famous Kokanee/Lake Trout fisheries. They include commercial removal, removal of slot limits, introducing sterile Macs, poising or sterilizing of spawning beds, bounties instead of tagged fish prizes and more. This study describes all the major Western fisheries and what each of them did to try to recover not just Kokanee but other trout species. I think they need to include them all!!

Once again please at least read the Western Lake Trout Woes study. The USU study is like reading a Nostradamus prediction come true for Flaming Gorge, backed by biomass studies. The three agencies, Utah, Wyoming and the Feds, determined that they could not plant enough rainbows to keep up with Mac predation to sustain a quality rainbow fishery. They plant rainbows to feed the macs too.
  WesternLakeTroutWoes2009(3).pdf (Size: 926.03 KB / Downloads: 8)
  WesternLakeTroutWoes2009(3).pdf (Size: 926.03 KB / Downloads: 8)

[Kent]

I had already read much of both studies, but went back and read more of the Western Lake Trout Woes study.  I think that there would be a major uprising, from the diehard lake trout anglers, if an effort was made to remove the lake trout.  I remember when they first started encouraging anglers to catch and keep the smaller lake trout.  Unless my memory fails me (which would not be a big surprise) the initial reaction, from anglers, was that all lake trout should be released and that all lake trout would grow large if they were not kept.

[ducksfresh]

I had already read much of both studies, but went back and read more of the Western Lake Trout Woes study.  I think that there would be a major uprising, from the diehard lake trout anglers, if an effort was made to remove the lake trout.  I remember when they first started encouraging anglers to catch and keep the smaller lake trout.  Unless my memory fails me (which would not be a big surprise) the initial reaction from anglers was that all lake trout should be released and that all lake trout would grow large if they were not kept.

Thanks so much for reading through them. I remember 10 years ago a guide was successful catching 20# fish in the south Buckboard area. Now the guides are catching 40# fish regularly in that area. And the koke fishing has dramatically declined in that same time period. These studies and my own personal experience suggests the lake trout will eat themselves out of house and home then get skinny and their numbers will drop. So it won't matter in the end, it will just take longer and the lake will end up being just like Fremont Lake, Jackson Lake and many others.

10 years ago a guy could catch hundreds of Burbot on their spawning beds in November. Ask the local guides what their success rate was this year. I am not s scientist, but I noticed tube jigs colored like a Burbot started being more successful 10 years ago.

[Fritzfishin]

I've got 3 Lakers from the gorge 1 27lber the other 2 pups, id love to catch some smaller 3-5lb for the skillet if I only was good at it!! Anyone need a +1?!?!

[Redrebel]

I know several people who have tried to go target pups at the gorge and had poor success and some even got skunked. The more detailed information that is posted about when, where and how to catch pups will help those guys who can only get there occasionally. It will also help the fishery the more guys who harvest pups. That's a long drive and a lot of gas to go and only catch one or 2 pups but if better intel was provided I think more guys would target them if they knew how to go and fill a cooler. Just my $.02

We use 3/8 oz glow head with red eyes. 4" yamamoto glow curlies tipped with a small piece of sucker or other non-game fish. We vertical jig using the spot lock on my Minn Kota. Target the fish you see on your finder. 70' to 90' of water. Some on the bottom, but lots suspended. We had schools of pups come buy at 30' and attack our offerings. There are literally thousands of pups in the buckboard area.

Here is a link to a very recent KSL Outdoors show on how to catch them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKyx_IPEB9Y

TJ Valdez at Buckboard Marina has a special going now. I think its $100 a day charter chasing the pups.

What kind of rod/reel setup?

[elkantlers]

First thing that needs to happen is to make it cheaper to fish the Wyoming side. $30 reciprocal stamps when The Utah side is $10 is stupid. Residents of either state should be able to fish the whole lake with their States respective license.
Boats registered in either Wyoming or Utah should be able to fish the whole lake without additional cost.

I haven't fished the Wyoming side in several years because of the additional costs. To get my boat and family legal costs over $200. It's just not worth it.

[MACMAN]

I really doubt they are going to kill off lake trout in the Gorge. It is world renowned for trophy lake trout. The water body is changing and always has. Do you remember the giant brown trout? Nature will take its course. It may not go in a direction that you want it to, but a balance will be found. It cannot be artificially created, just influenced. If the macs eat the lake out of house and home, they will crash and Kokes will flourish and the cycle will reset. One thing I’ve learned with fishing is to get while the getting is good, cause it’s probably not gonna last. If the sky was falling that bad, the f&g would go to a catch and kill reg and as mentioned before make it less expensive to go after them. Last year I spent like $150 to get the boat, myself and kids legal to fish across the state line for 6 hours. Brutal. I also don’t eat lake trout, but I know how to catch them- I have nothing to do with them when I am successful. There’s some changes that need to take place before I believe they are in full panic mode. Otherwise you might need to get your Kokes from Strawberry for a while, they are doing good in there.

[Coho975]

First thing that needs to happen is to make it cheaper to fish the Wyoming side. $30 reciprocal stamps when The Utah side is $10 is stupid. Residents of either state should be able to fish the whole lake with their States respective license.
Boats registered in either Wyoming or Utah should be able to fish the whole lake without additional cost.

I haven't fished the Wyoming side in several years because of the additional costs. To get my boat and family legal costs over $200. It's just not worth it.

Plenty of pups in UT. The problem is not exclusive to WY.

[SkunkedAgain]

So i've got a question about fishing the gorge, If I was leaving from Utah, driving down I-80 to the gorge to fish the Utah side. Do i need to have the Wyoming invasive species tags? Also i heard something about having some sort of seal put on your boats, what are they?, where do you get such things done? This has been one of my big concerns over fishing the gorge lately is I'm not sure of all the invasive species regs and don't want to get in trouble or spend a fortune... Think my boat is big enough now that I'm not as worried about weather as I was so i need to figure out the rules... I wouldn't mind helping reduce the pups.... Kind of crazy if the pups are as plentiful as you say, I sure haven't run into those numbers in my ice trips up there.... however, I do know a boat opens up the use of sonar to find the schools... also know that the mac do take the top predator roll really well.. Was fishing a lake in the Winds that had mac in it as well as brookies. I caught a brookie on a fly and released it in the shallow crystal clear waters edge... As the brookie swam back towards the deeper water two mac rushed in and attacked the brookie, ended up tearing the fish in half in front of me as one mac was on each end trying to tear it away from the other fish.. Last time I was there the mac were starting to get skinny and all the chubs and such that used to be in that lake weren't visible any longer, so i think they do eat everything... Later J

[ducksfresh]

I really doubt they are going to kill off lake trout in the Gorge. It is world renowned for trophy lake trout. The water body is changing and always has. Do you remember the giant brown trout?  Nature will take its course. It may not go in a direction that you want it to, but a balance will be found. It cannot be artificially created, just influenced. If the macs eat the lake out of house and home, they will crash and Kokes will flourish and the cycle will reset. One thing I’ve learned with fishing is to get while the getting is good, cause it’s probably not gonna last. If the sky was falling that bad, the f&g would go to a catch and kill reg and as mentioned before make it less expensive to go after them. Last year I spent like $150 to get the boat, myself and kids legal to fish across the state line for 6 hours. Brutal. I also don’t eat lake trout, but I know how to catch them- I have nothing to do with them when I am successful. There’s some changes that need to take place before I believe they are in full panic mode. Otherwise you might need to get your Kokes from Strawberry for a while, they are doing good in there.

Hi Macman,
If you read the Western Lake Trout Woes study you will take note that the Macs did not crash from starvation. They just quit growing. There are some cool pics. I hope the experience from the other great fisheries in that study will help guide us at the Gorge.

The USU study predicts EXACTLY what has happened at the Gorge. It is a history lesson and a look into the future backed by data. Some have discounted the data as old and the processes are outdated. But the facts are, what they showed us in 1992 is what happened. I really hope you and others will read them and come to their own conclusions.

[dubob]

This is for those of you that think Lake Trout are not fit to eat - you are mistaken.  ?

When properly cleaned and baked, pan fried, or smoked, they are indeed edible.  If you haven't mastered those cooking skills, there is another method that produces delicious meat for just about anybody.  That method is pressure canning.

The beauty of pressure canning fish is that they will keep, without refrigeration, indefinitely.  And, just like the canned salmon/tuna you buy at your local grocery store, the meat is an excellent choice for mixing with some mayonnaise, onions, celery and a relish and served up with your favorite crackers and adult beverage or make a delicious sandwich with it.  Or make fish patties similar to the salmon patties your mother/grandmother used to make.

I started canning fish (in real cans) in Alaska in 1970.  I have canned salmon, trout, char, and grayling.  I have also canned game bird and big game meat with excellent results.  The canning temperatures for fish crystalizes any bones you may have missed such that you will never detect their presence when eating the results.  Canned duck/goose meat mixed with BBQ sauce will make sandwiches that will rival your best smoker BBQ dishes.

Don't forget to add some of your favorite spice flavors to each bottle before canning.  A tablespoon of Russian salad dressing is one of my favorites for fish.  And I always add a teaspoon of Morton's Season All to every bottle.  I always mix up a double batch of salmon/trout cracker dip for group parties I sometimes attend - like the BFT Flotilla.  There's is never any left to bring home.  And pint bottles of canned fish of any stripe make excellent gifts to your best friends.  

[ducksfresh]

So i've got a question about fishing the gorge, If I was leaving from Utah, driving down I-80 to the gorge to fish the Utah side.  Do i need to have the Wyoming invasive species tags?  Also i heard something about having some sort of seal put on your boats, what are they?, where do you get such things done?  This has been one of my big concerns over fishing the gorge lately is I'm not sure of all the invasive species regs and don't want to get in trouble or spend a fortune... Think my boat is big enough now that I'm not as worried about weather as I was so i need to figure out the rules... I wouldn't mind helping reduce the pups....  Kind of crazy if the pups are as plentiful as you say, I sure haven't run into those numbers in my ice trips up there.... however, I do know a boat opens up the use of sonar to find the schools... also know that the mac do take the top predator roll really well.. Was fishing a lake in the Winds that had mac in it as well as brookies.  I caught a brookie on a fly and released it in the shallow crystal clear waters edge... As the brookie swam back towards the deeper water two mac rushed in and attacked the brookie, ended up tearing the fish in half in front of me as one mac was on each end trying to tear it away from the other fish..  Last time I was there the mac were starting to get skinny and all the chubs and such that used to be in that lake weren't visible any longer, so i think they do eat everything... Later J

Hi Skunked Again,
Yes you will need a WY IAS (Invasive Aquatics Species) sticker or paper tag showing you purchased a permit from the WY Fish and Game. I would get it from their website before you travel up there. And yes you will need to stop at a IAS check station before launching in any WY water. After they inspect your boat they will apply a wired seal to you boat/trailer. Its pretty painless. They are serious about keeping all invasive species out of their water.

---

I had already read much of both studies, but went back and read more of the Western Lake Trout Woes study.  I think that there would be a major uprising, from the diehard lake trout anglers, if an effort was made to remove the lake trout.  I remember when they first started encouraging anglers to catch and keep the smaller lake trout.  Unless my memory fails me (which would not be a big surprise) the initial reaction, from anglers, was that all lake trout should be released and that all lake trout would grow large if they were not kept.

If the Gorge mimics what the other great fisheries have, it won't matter. The macs will just get skinny and not die off. That picture on that 2nd page is crazy. A mac that had not had good forage feed for 10 years was still alive.