What's up with the USF&G

[fishnate]

I saw this post on another forum today.

From utahfishfinder...

"I saw an article in the paper the other day about how the USF&G is going to electro shock the Colorado river below Glen Canyon dam and grind up any non native fish that is found. This would include trout, catfish etc. They estimate that 70,000 trout need to be killed to reach their goal. There is alot of outcry from animal rights as well as some indians. If they are going to do this on the Colorado then the Green is next. They already kill any non-native fish found in their nets out in the Uintah basin."

[mad] Does anyone know anything more about this? If this is true, it needs to be stopped. Letters/emails need to written to the USF&G and congressmen to let them know this isn't appropriate behavior. It drives me nuts that unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats, such as the USF&G, sets such policies. [mad]

What do you think?
[signature]

[PREDATOR]

I learned possibly the most valuable lesson of my life concerning this topic last moday at the northern utah RAC meeting held in brigham city. I learned more about wildlife and thier managment in three hours than I have my whole life. I have always been one to wonder why is this they way it is, why dont they do that? I thought I had a better simple plan that was just being over looked by the DWR. Let me tell you, First, until you have ALL the facts and biological information and understand what is involved you cant make any kind of educated judgement. These boys who work at the USFWS know thier stuff. They have all the info, have done the research and thier homework and they understand EXACTLY what needs to happen to create balance. The only hold up they have is lack of manpower and lack of financing. Second, there is ALWAYS MULTIPLE aspects to the managment process. Angling is most likley the very last impactful factor in the managment process. My recomendation would be to attend a meeting where this event is going to be discussed, I bet you will have a different attitude after you have heard the discussion. If there is no meeting, call them up and talk to the guy in charge. He will listen to your concerns, and explain why they have to do what the are planning. I doubt the Fish and Game would kill off a resource unless it was jeopardizing the entire future of the fishery. Many many times I have been quilty of stating my opinon as to what I think the Fish and Game ought to do, but as of monday sept 23, my support is behind the DWR full strength, and all my letters to the state legislature and congressmen will be asking for more money so they can fund thier projects. I hope not to sound scolding, or offending, this is just my opinion. I used to feel the same fire you are feeling, but I feel I have recieved an eye opening education on the subject. The place to voice your concerns would be at a RAC meeting, there you will have the oportunity to learn, and comment. If any one on this site has not attended one, I highly recomend it. I know I will be at every one that has a topic I am interested in. It can be an education. Thanks for the info fishnate.

[fishnate]

You have some interesting and good points. I guess the problem I have is that it seems that the environmental extreemists are running the show when it comes to evironmental issues (i.e. the spotted owl, snail darters, etc.) and these issues are such emotional issues and full of junk science ment to deprive people an honest living and also to keep sportsmen from enjoying themselves in nature because they might destroy the "delicate balance of nature".

The issue of returning all of the US back to the way it was previous to Columbus is madness. Much of southern NM is off limits to cattle, hikers, environmentalists, etc. due to the reintroduction of wolves. I understand they are beginning to drain dams in the North West. The extreemists want to drain Powell to return the Colorado to the way it was before the dam. I see this fish kill as a stepping stone to achieving that end, for the only road block has been the recreationalists who faught to save Powell.

Extreem environmentalists screem pretty loud and are heard by govt agencies and I just hope that sportsmen are heard just as much because I believe that some policies are made strictly on politics and not pure science.

Lets hope that this isn't a measure to destroy the trout fishery below Glen Canyon but just to make some room for natives. [unsure]
[signature]

[davetclown]

[center][url "http://members.aol.com/americacruising/lakepowell.html"][/url][/center][center]click on pic to go to powell lake[/center]

this is issue about draining the powel is a hot topic for sure.

in time it will be drained dispite the fact that the hydro electric generators in the dam feed the town becides the fact that the lake is needed for tourest revinue.

environalmentalise will not have any barring on this event in any shape or form, it will be drained because the dam will give way flooding every thing in its path all the way to the califronia bay with a flash flood senario equivalent to a non stop 100 foot tidal wave.

the reason that the dam will collaps (not may) is that the valley walls are made of sedimentary sand stone and not grannet. the canyon walls are already showing signs of giving way ( The dam was completed in 1962, but the lake did not finish filling until 1980!) when the dam was built no concideration was taken for the fact the the walls would not stand up to the tremendous force of water weight pushing against the dam and the against the canyon walls that the dam is ajasoned to. it is more a matter of time than it is an issue of what environmentalist want or dont want. this is not an issue that environmentalist will ever have an impact on because of the tremdous economicle impacts that the lake provides to many comunities.

when the lake is finaly drained it will be for the sake of life and property and rebuilt for sake of commerce. (and this time hopefuly done right)
[signature]

[wiperhunter2]

Dennis, I'm glad to see you found the site. WH2
[signature]

[fishnate]

Dennis, the source appears dubious. I asked for a source of the report on the other forum and have never recieved a reply.[]
[signature]

[ssor]

fishnate,
After looking over the thred it looks like DaveTclown has got this thing figured out. At least it shure makes alot of sence to me.
[signature]

[TubeDude]

Good article in the Phoenix paper this morning on the proposed "renovation" of the Colorado River below Lake Powell. The good news is that they are going to electroshock and relocate up to 20,000 rainbows and browns...rather than "grinding" them. The bad news is that they are going to remove up to 20,000 trout...just to give some elbow room to native chubs and suckers. Go figure.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1...ood01.html

The article points out several fallacies/stupidities on the part of the people and agencies involved, and they expect some "stiff opposition" from several groups...including fishermen.

There is another site that has a lot of good info, including some real government documents on various environmental issues. http://www.uc.usbr.gov/ This is the Bureau of Reclamation site for the Upper Colorado Basin. Go to the column on the left and click on Environmental Documents.

Sorry I couldn't come up with better news. TD
[signature]

[road]

Well I've read all the post and I have to agree with pred on this. You all need to attend a few meetings with your local DWR who ever they might be. Where I live I have to drive to Vernal. For me this is not just around the corner. But I attend them regulary and what I have learned could easily fill a book. Just enough to get me in trouble really. But a lot takes place to make the decisions that they do. It is not just on a whim. And the enviromentalist do have some clout!

BUT SO DO YOU!!! You need to get out and vote. Vote for those who support your beliefs and that will stand up and say so. Not getting on a band wagon here, but if you want to protect what you have then YOU have to do something to do that. The most effective way is electing officals that will do your bidding.
[signature]

[PREDATOR]

[size 4]Dennis, is there a reason you have the private messages turned off in your profile? I would like to discuss some things with you that just dont really need to be on the main forum. For those of us who have not used this feature before, it is like an e-mail that only works for this site, when you log on, the bar at the top of the page that says private messages will be red and let you know how many you have. It is not a link to your e-mail, its just a way to discuss things with individuals on this forum. To turn it on, just go to the edit profile section next to the private message icon and scroll down, where it asks if you want to be able to recieve private messages, mark yes and then click the make changes button. Dennis, if you have personal reasons you dont want to recieve P.M.'s thats fine I will contact you some other way. [/size]

[DennisW]

Predator, I wasn't registered--just using guest account. I'm registered now though, so try again. Or send me an email.

[davetclown]

[url "http://www.canyon-country.com/lakepowell/gcdam.htm"]http://www.canyon-country.com/lakepowell/gcdam.htm[/url]

[url "http://www.glencanyon.org/"]http://www.glencanyon.org/[/url]

[url "http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/199703/brower.html"]http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/199703/brower.html[/url]

[url "http://pagelakepowell.com/"]http://pagelakepowell.com/[/url]

[url "http://www.nps.gov/glca/damindx.htm"]http://www.nps.gov/glca/damindx.htm[/url]

[url "http://www.nps.gov/glca"]http://www.nps.gov/glca[/url]

[url "http://www.desertusa.com/gc/gcd/du_glencaydam.html"]http://www.desertusa.com/gc/gcd/du_glencaydam.html[/url]

[url "http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/grandcan/dam.html"]http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/grandcan/dam.html[/url]

[url "http://www.glencanyonassociation.org/dam.htm"]http://www.glencanyonassociation.org/dam.htm[/url]

[url "http://www.pagelakepowell.com/dam.htm"]http://www.pagelakepowell.com/dam.htm[/url]

[url "http://www.webshots.com/g/32/649-nw/27288.html"]http://www.webshots.com/g/32/649-nw/27288.html[/url]

[url "http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/glen_canyon/glen_canyon_dam.html"]http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/glen_canyon/glen_canyon_dam.html[/url]

[url "http://www.uc.usbr.gov/ea_eis/gc/glen.html"][#800080]http://www.uc.usbr.gov/ea_eis/gc/glen.html[/#800080][/url]

[url "http://www.glencanyon.net/peregrine.htm"]http://www.glencanyon.net/peregrine.htm[/url]

Here is just 14 web sites of[#999999] [/#999999]about 20499 all concerning the Glenn Canyon Dam



As you said this issue is a seven-headed quarter, with many views many opinions and lots at stake, it is hard for the masses to view the issues with out becoming emotionally outraged.

You have defiantly covered many of the issues and yet with as much as you have covered on varied opinions there are more still much, much more out there. As to the dam being built in to sand stone just look at the canyon walls, any first year geologist knows that granite dose not wash away or collapse form water just sitting against it. Look at the numerous pic’s available on the net.

But as you say it is an opinion, no matter whom you ask, whether it be a biologist or geologist or an ecologist or entomologist, every one has an opinion, that is good,

In hind site there was varying little opinion available because there was no information to base one on. Today there is an overwhelming amount of information available, unfortunately many will manipulate said information to give an outlook that will favor their ideas of what will work or wont depending on the case. Every group has an agenda to which they want to see a specified out come to pass.

As with any legend there is always an ounce of truth. Even those dragons of the middle ages had an ounce of truth in Europe, they were dinosaur’s were based on the bones of dinosaurs, and that kept the imaginations the masses running wild for several millennia in fear of what they knew vary little of or could not understand.

To worm up water in a river below a dam is simple, just allow more of the top waters of the lake to flow over the dam, to cool of the waters of a river below a dam is again a simple procedure and that is to allow the water at the lower levels of the lake behind the dam to flow in to the river.

Having dealt personally with various townships and cities regarding environmental and social issues and found that while many to be very receptive to certain issues other issues that will cut into budgets will be placed on a back burner for a later date or will be discarded all together. In the case of the latter, municipalities will give you the runaround or give you non pertinent information in hopes you will walk away and leave them alone.

In reality when push comes to shove, it will be the all mighty dollar that will make the final decision.

Dennis I am truly glad you decided to join us here at Bigfishtackle and am looking forward to discuss this issue as it progresses and hopefully other issues as they come up. I believe that many of our readers will benefit form our discussions and hopefully develop an opinion of their own and join in.
[signature]