Yellowstone Cutts - Trouble

[WestFork]

Not looking good for the cutts up there!

[url "http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2005/11/26/news/03cutthroatsinperil.txt"]http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2005/11/26/news/03cutthroatsinperil.txt[/url]
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[fuzzyfisher]

well before they put the yellowstone cutt on the endangerd species list.. they better take a count in E-lake.. it's full of them stinking things.. and as far as i care they can take every one out of E-lake and put them where they belong.. in yelostone lake not E-lake..
then maybe we can get some fish in E-lake that will grow!!
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[outdoorfanatic]

Yeah, when we went up there this summer, we definately noticed a difference. We only caught one cutt after many hours of fishing. The lake trout are much more common now. That would be fine, but they are harder catch than the cutts used to be.

[WestFork]

[reply]
....The lake trout are much more common now. That would be fine, but they are harder catch than the cutts used to be. [/reply]
That would be fine!? Are you kidding? Gamble with the very existence of a native species in its native environment, just so you can catch more lake trout?
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[Carp_Punisher]

[#505000]In all honesty lets look at this realistically. The yellowstone cutt is hardly an endanged species, they can be found in MANY waters. With that said how many fisheries across the nation are "pristine". Mankind had planted his favorites all over the country/world. Look at almost any lake in Utah and you will see non-native fish species. Are any of us surprised Yellowstone Lake is much different?[/#505000]
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[#505000]It's too bad someone planted lakers there but unless we can find a way to control/eliminate them, eventually a new eco-system will form there based on what is in the water. Unfortunate? absolutely! Enviromental disaster and gambling with the "very existence of a native species" that seems like an extreme way to look at it. [/#505000]
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[#505000]I think the point I am trying to make is that what is done is done (be it right or wrong). We can either whine about it, do something about it (besides whine), or make the best of the situation we have. Even if the very last yellowstone cutt in that lake died tomorrow the species isn't gone. It's all over the west. The lake is still there, the water just as pure, and a new species apparently better suited to the envoriment has replaced it.[/#505000]
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[doggonefishin]

A vigorous effort to save the Yellowstone lake cutt fishery is something that should be supported. If the cutts declined to nothing, it would have a negative effect far beyond just the fishing. Bears, eagles, ospreys, and other species depend on the cutts for food, especially when the cutts make their spawning runs up the tributaries in the spring. Since lakers do not spawn in streams and tend to be deep water fish, these fish predators that are synonymous with Yellowstone would be negatively impacted. Also, at least with the lake trout, their plan has a reasonable chance of control. This isn't like the june sucker where the odds are stacked against them. Whirling disease may be tougher but it isn't necessarily hopeless there either.
Tight lines
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[Carp_Punisher]

[#505000]I agree with what you are saying 100%. The point I was trying to make was that even at a worst case scenario eventually those predators would adapt and the eco system would change to conform with the new species. There would be a few rough years, but there are other lakes in the region with "shallow" trout. I don't think these predators would need to go far to find food.[/#505000]
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[#505000]Utah Lake is a fine example of my point. Look at the ecological disaster it is compared to the early 1800's or what it is now from what it was in the 60's and 70's when it was esentially the county sewer/steel cooling pond. Native species wiped out, water quality horribly degraded, aggressive non-native species introduced, and vegetation destroyed around the lake by non-native species. Although the species of fish inside the lake have drastically changed it's still a vibrant lake with plenty of wildlife, and a thriving eco system. [/#505000]
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[#505000]The Yellowstone cutt unlike the June Sucker is in no danger at this point of being endangered as a species. The wildlife around yellowstone will adapt if it is replaced by lakers in that body of water. I think it would be unfortunate and I think something could and should be done, but worst case scenario if it can't I don't forsee the doom and gloom which is being prophecied. [/#505000]
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[#505000]The long and short of both my lengthy posts is IF we can fix the problem let's do it. IF we can't fix the problem let's make the best of it. [/#505000]
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[#505000]When all is said and done I never have and likely never will fish that lake so I have little to no stake in it either way.[/#505000]
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[WestFork]

Scenario: 50 years in the future, old man an young boy jigging for macks on YS lake.

Kid - "Grampa , what's a cutthroat?"

Gramps - "Just some crappy old fish that evolved here over millions of years, but couldn't hack it when we threw some of our favorite macks in here."

Kid - "Who put the lake trout in here."

Gramps - "Son, they were some of the smartest men of there time, smarter than the biologists, thank god for em too!"

Kid - "What did the cutthroats look like?"

Gramps - "One of the most beautiful trout out there, but damn they couldn't put up a fight. If you want to see one, I think there might be one hangin in the visitor center."

Kid - "Why didn't anyone try to save some cutthroats for me to fish for?"

Gramps - "Well, you see, a few folks tried, but we told em they were wasting their time, and the macks were here to stay, plus macks are a whole lot bigger anyaway, and that's why we come up every november fur sum jigg'n!"

Kid - "Oh, thanks grampa"
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[Carp_Punisher]

[#505000]Did you bother to read either of my posts Westfork? I said in BOTH of them I think if there is something we can do WE SHOULD DO IT!! However, I and most of the readers here will likey agree with me when I say IF nothing can be done, we should make the best of what we have left instead of sitting around whining what went wrong. [/#505000]
[#505000][/#505000]
[#505000]I support the fisheries biologist. I don't condone bucket biology. I find it they have been introduced into Yellowstone Lake. [/#505000]
[#505000][/#505000]
[#505000]I also find it pathetic, and unfair you have to characterized me as a pro bucket biologist, anti-fisheries biologist, who choses my preffered fish as the one which fights best just because I don't fully subscribe to your way of thinking. [/#505000]
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[#505000]If and when you bother to read either of my two previous responses to your original post you can see I am looking at the topic from a different angle and bringing out the pros and cons of the situation. [/#505000]
[#505000][/#505000]
[#505000]This is a message board for people to discuss DIFFERENT ideas. If the ideas are different than yours or don't correspond to your line of thinking don't get worked up or take it personal. Not every person is a clone, and because I don't chose to follow a doom and gloom philosphy on this topic don't make me wrong or a supporter of those who were wrong to illegally plant lakers. [/#505000]
[#505000][/#505000]
[#505000]Frankly if 50 years if all there are in Yellowstone Lake are Lake Trout I'll take my grandson to any of 100 lakes in the area and show him what a living yellostone trout looks like.[/#505000]
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[Everet14]

Have you ever caught a decent Yellowstone? if you have you would not have said what you did about the fight. I live in Rexburg and fish Henry's Lake regularly if the Yellowstone was gone it would be a day. I am sorry but classifying the Yellowstone as a stupid fish is wrong, I would take a Yellowstone over a Lake trout anyday! The yellowstone is one of the prettiest fish alive and I hope it can hang on, but retard bucket biologists seem to think they know whats best, I HATE EM!
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[IceRod]

The experts say that Yellowstone has a major eruption every 300,000 years or so, and it has been about 300,000 years since it erupted.

In the grand scheme of things you guys are bickering over a moot point.
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[doggonefishin]

The question "why save these indigenous varieties when other species do better" is a valid one asked by the public at large. Yellowstone lake offers a good example of why we should. Before the lakers showed up, that lake had continuous phenomenal fishing for good sized trout perfectly adapted to the conditions. then the lakers came along and started eating the cutts. What will happen if the efforts fail or nothing is done? The lakers will do well for a time but once the groceries are gone, they too will go into a steep decline and the fishing will suck for all. The prey species will then return some, but the new ecology (and the fishing) will never be what it was for a very long time. Yellowstone strain cutts that have been living in a small creek for thousands of years would not do as well as the lake evolved cutts if reintroduced to the lake. While our native trout have some vulnerabilities they also have great advantages derived from millenia of living here. The Bear Lake cutts were thought to be gone as a pure strain, but they did genetic analysis on a few BL cutts in the 1970's and found them to be the native strain. The DWR in their wisdom started propogating them then, and the rest is history. All of us that fish the Berry are glad this native subspecies was brought back to health. Other examples may occur in the future, we just don't know.
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[Flycasting]

What is your problem WestFork? Why do you have to attack people for no reason. It sucks that the lakers are taking over. CP stated that we can sit around and whine about it (which you are doing) or we can be proactiv about it. (which he was suggesting) For you to portray him as a bucket biologist sympathizer is not only wrong, it makes you look stupid.

How about you read his reply before attacking...
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[UtahDave]

I think it is interesting that you think Utah lake is in great shape. 95% of the lakes biomass is made up of carp...Those carp move thousands upon thousands of lbs of silt a day. That silt keeps aquatic plants from establishing. The lack of aquatic plants leads to heavy growth of algae. The heavy growth of algae further shades the bottom and reduces plant growth and creates a vicious cycle. Pure and simply that lake is a mess.

Back to Yellowstone Lake

We also have to remember that not losing only is that losing the fish out of the lake it is greatly reduced the most heavily used river cutthroat fishery in the world. 16 miles between the lake and upper falls, basically ruined. The thoraofare is also not the destination it used to be.

Yellowstones as a whole doing well?

LEt's see the heart lake population has been greatly reduced. the teton river fish have crashed in the last 5 years. blackfoot river and reservoir fish are having problems. Henry's lake fish are maintened by stocking and Utah chubs represent a real threat to the fishery. Lower Yellowstone river fish are beginning to hybridize.

Robert Behnke says it best:

"Although Yellowstone Lake and the yellowstone river drainage above the falls represent the world's geatest population of pure cutthroat trout, consisting of over 1 million adult fish, they Yellowstone cutthroat has largely been replaced by non-native
brook, brown, and rainbow trout throughout most of its original range in the upper snake river drainage and the Yellowstone river drainage. For example the largespotted cutthroat native to waha lake idaho...are long extinct. The cutthroat trout of rosebud Creek Montana...have been totally replaced by brook brown and rainbow trout. a similar fate has befallen the cutthroat trout of the river drainage, Wyoming...and the cuttrhoat trout that were in the little Bighorn river in 1876-- all long gone.

The greatest threat to the continued existince of the worlds most abundant population and single greatest concentration of cutthroat trout, that of Yelowstone Lake, is predation from lake trout illegially introduced about 25 years ago...Since 1994 an intensive netting program has removed thousands of lake trout from Yellowstone Lake. Without this program, it is likely that the native cutthroat trout would be virtually eliminated from the lake."

So tell me where are the wild fish really doing well? Enlighten me?

And no fish in a small high lake in the Winds does not replace a lucustrine population like yellowstone lake fish. Fish that are adapted to wonderfull things like move downstream into the yellowstone river and spawn. As they reutrn to the lake in mid-july fisherman line the river and cast dry flies to large fish. No, no some lake 9000 feet in the Clark Fork of the Yellowstone drainage will never replace that. The reason people get fired up about comments that ininsinuate its ok to let the lake trout take over is two fold. 1) giving up only encourages bucket biologists; 2) The control of the lake trout will require continued funding.

It's kind of like the great lakes. Here lake trout were initially overharvested and then they were impacted by the non-native sea lamprey. Lakers in Michigan disappeared, Huron was a only a remant popualtion. Erie and Ontario lost their fish also. So what did we at first do? We stocked steelhead, coho and chinook salmon. guess what they are now beginning to do? Yup, you guessed it eat out their prey base. Notice a pattern here. Native fish is overexpolited, fisherman and fish and game dempartments bring in another "better adapted fish". That fish then eats the native prey base and eats itself out of house and home. Someone else puts another fish so his starving fish can eat and the cycle goes on and on and on again. hell, why do anything? I jear sea lamprey is tasty!

Of course we spend money trying to control sea lamprey's, efforts are underway to restore these fish. all the points you make could be used to never restore or protect the lake trout in the great lakes. Do they deserve protection. Yes! And cutthroats deserve the same.

What is truly about yellowstone lake and its fish is it represented the last truly wild native ecosystem in the lower 48. It must be protected at all costs.
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[Bigcat]

I think I am hearing everyone here saying the same thing in a little different way. Each has said something to this effect "WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN TO SAVE THE NATIVE YELLOWSTONE CUTTS AND THEIR NATIVE HABITAT". The difference between your opinions is that IF all of these efforts don't work then some of you are going to be sitting around weeping, wailing, and telling stories of the good ol days catching yellowstone cutts and the other guys are going to go catch some some big lake trout. No harm, no foul. I think it would be tragic to loose this great native fishery. I think we should do everything in our power to save it. But if we loose the native population despite all of our efforts to save it, I will shed a quick tear and then go catch me a big lake trout and tell my kids and grandkitds stories of all the good ol days catching yellowstone cutts.

So what is being done to save the Yellowstone cutts and what else should be done?
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Hey Dave, we appreciate your insightful comments.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]However, I gotta ask. Is your knowledge of Utah Lake based upon first hand info? I think not. CP and myself fish it regularly, and I have fished it (and observed it) for over 40 years. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]My evaluation? It REALLY IS in good shape (comparatively) to what it has been. I would strongly dispute that carp are 95% of the biomass at present. It is getting progressively more difficult to even find and catch carp for bait than it used to be. And, the fish you catch are smaller and thinner than in days of old.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]No aquatic plants? This past year, with the higher water, aquatic plants came back with a vengeance. In fact, by August, it was impossible to fish many of the areas of the lake shallower than six feet deep.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Algae? Other than the late summer dieoff, with a few patches floating here and there on the lake, there was hardly any. A lot more at Strawberry and other trout habitat.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Yeah, poor old Utah Lake gets its share of abuse, and it will never be "pristine" again. But, for what it is, it is in pretty good shape. If the water levels remain up (and they are rising again), there should be good spawn and recruitment of all species again this year. All of the fish I have taken from there this last year, with the exception of some skinny walleyes, have been healthy. And, those I have taken home to eat have been of good quality, with no bad taste or evidence of disease or parasites. Can't say that about the trout from many of the state's waters.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Not trying to be confrontational, but when you diss one of my fishin' holes I feel motivated to stand up fer it.[/#0000ff]
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[WestFork]

[reply]
[#505000]...See below, I have the hardest time getting the quote to work. Westfork.[/#505000] [/reply]
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[WestFork]

[reply]
What is your problem WestFork? Why do you have to attack people for no reason. It sucks that the lakers are taking over. CP stated that we can sit around and whine about it (which you are doing) or we can be proactiv about it. (which he was suggesting) For you to portray him as a bucket biologist sympathizer is not only wrong, it makes you look stupid.

How about you read his reply before attacking... [/reply]
No problem, didn't want it to come across as an attack. Post has been edited. Trying to make a point, guess you didn't like the way I did it, anyway, besides having a guys back, what do you have to add that's useful to this topic. I'd be interested in you opinion as well.
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[WestFork]

[reply]
The experts say that Yellowstone has a major eruption every 300,000 years or so, and it has been about 300,000 years since it erupted.

In the grand scheme of things you guys are bickering over a moot point. [/reply]
Hell we're all gona die sooner than later, whats the use, hookers an booze for everyone!!!
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[Bigfishrule]

So I guess it was not them "smart Bioliogists" that "illegally introduced" Bear Lake Cutts into Strawberry. Yep a drainage that is home to another endangered cuttthroat. The Colorado River Cuttthroat! Or the mighty stripper into Lake Powell. And on and on. Its only a supid bucket biologists when the DWR did'nt do the transplanting. Why do the dwr and elitist fishermen never look at themselves before they start blaming others. Nature has been evolving for millions of years and will continue to evolve for millions more. And contrary to popular opionion MAN is a part of nature. Now I'm not condoning bucket biology by anyone and that includes the Holy DWR. But if we are going to waste time and money restoring fisheries then lets work on all of them. Lets start removing the Bear Lake Cuttthroat from Strawberry and return them to Bear Lake. Now thats not going to be popular. But why one place and not another. Lets take all limits of any non native species. Hell lets put a bounty on them and kill all non natives. Oops I guess that means all us people too. And that includes the indians who migrated across a land bridge from Russia to Alaska.
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