More on PFDs

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Last week's tragedy on Strawberry served to remind us all that PFD's can save lives...but only if you wear them.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Just in case you still need more positive reinforcement in your new commitment to ALWAYS wear your life jacket, here is a [url "http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_4666860"]LINK TO ARTICLE[/url] by Brett Prettyman in this morning's Tribune.[/#0000ff]
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[kokeking]

I think thats it great that boaters and fisherman want to recommit to wearing a pfd,yahoo good for them. If people wore thier pfd's more it would probable saves lives ,but as I have stated before,the last thing I want is for it to become mandatory to have to wear one.Education will work better then another law protecting me from me.
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[redlight88]

Look at the stats - education is not working....
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Unfortunately, some people resist education. And, survival of the species being what it is...we need to cull the herd of those who will not learn. There is seldom a week goes by during which someone does not walk in front of a moving vehicle...or get thrown from a car because they were not wearing a seat belt. They die not because someone else failed to tell them not to be stupid...but because they were either stupid or lazy or both.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]You can lead a horse to water...but you can't force him to wear his PFD.[/#0000ff]
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[kokeking]

Redlight88, how do we know that education isn't working,when we don't know how many people have ever some type of education to being on a boat?.This is one reason that I advocate state's have some type of a boater's education course .More education helps us to become better boaters ,not more laws.
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[Carp_Punisher]

[#505000]I hope I don't start a lively debate here with what I am about to preach but......[/#505000]

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[size 1]I think thats it great that boaters and fisherman want to recommit to wearing a pfd,yahoo good for them. If people wore thier pfd's more it would probable saves lives ,but as I have stated before,the last thing I want is for it to become mandatory to have to wear one.Education will work better then another law protecting me from me. [/size]

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[black][#505000]I too hate to see stuff become mandatory because of the problems with people who choose not to use their safety equipment, but first off if everyone did it it wouldn't need to be made a law, and if it was a law and everyone did it it we would have the same outcome as if we could convince everyone to wear one without. Making it a law encourages the honest people to do it when they otherwise might not. A ticket, and subsequent fine can be a good educational tool for the stubborn.[/#505000] [/black]

[#505000]The argument that it's a personal choice that affects "only me" is hogwash and always has been. From a automobile standpoint the cost of medical attention, from injuries that could have been avoided by wearing a seat belt are immense. [/#505000]
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[#505000]The cost of flying search planes, boats, expensive radar units, divers, the pay for the people to operate this stuff and the man hours to recover your body because you chose not to wear a PFD is staggering. I can tell you the cost of the Strawberry operation so far would likey cover your mortgage with some left over. Who pays for this? You and I do in our taxes. All could have been possibly been avoided with a couple of $60PFD's[/#505000]
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[#505000]If you normally wear a PFD a law making it mandatory wouldn't affect you at all. It's like a law that says don't kill people. Since I hope none of us would even think about that the law has no affect on us. It's a useless law when applied to you or me, and doesn't really govern our everyday behavior. [/#505000]
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[#505000]Inconviencing a few knuckleheads, and fining a few violators seems a small price to pay compared to the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to fish their bodies out of a lake. [/#505000]

[#505000]Now monetary costs aside. How does someone who choses to make their personal choice to use or not use a PFD affect their friends, family and neighbors? How about their kids?[/#505000]

[#505000]What about those rescue workers who have to spend extra time away from their friends, family, and fishing to come look for your corpse? How about the psycological effects on them when they find your bloated, fish chewed corpse with dead lifeless staring eyes. How about the traffic cops and ambulance personal who have to deal with the mental trauma of dealing with your mangled corpse? Severed limbs, collapsed skulls, broken necks, blood guts, and gore because you chose not to wear a seat belt? [/#505000]
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[#505000]How about your family worried sick because you fell out of the boat and are missing. Who will pay the bills now? Who will your son or daughter grow up with as a father? How does mom tell the kids daddy is gone? [/#505000]
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[#505000]Seatbelts and PFD's the two issues are very much the same. Don't try and buffalo us, or even yourself into thinking it's a personal choice which affects only you. It's a choice that affects you, your wife, your kids, strangers, tax payers and a myriad of other people. [/#505000]
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[size 1]another law protecting me from me. [/size]

[#505000][size 2]The idea behind these laws isn't so much to protect you from you as to protect your family from you, to protect tax payers from you, and to protect search and rescue from you. The protect you from you is the very last part ofwhat these laws are put into place for. [/size][/#505000]
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[size 2][#505000]I know I already said it but the only people who oppose these types of laws are those who generally don't use their safety equipment anyway. The fisherman who wears a PFD, and who buckles up when driving to or from the lake could care less if it were mandatory or not since he does it anyway.[/#505000] [/size]
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[#505000][size 2]*clears throat and steps down off the soap box*[/size][/#505000][/size]
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[cadresults]

Carp,

Great post! I couldn't agree more. There was a lively debate when
seat belts became "mandatory". We are better off with this law. Education and law is the best choice IMO.

Those who wear PFD already, shouldn't be offended at all.
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[utfishguy31]

Guys,

If I remember right this was a free country,Its your choice wether to buckle up in a car or not,its your choice to where a PFD while in a boat,in saying that its your own fault if you die by not wearing one.I personaly dont wear my seatbelt ALL the time,I know the risks I havent worn a life jacket while on my boat (20ft) but they are at hand.My kids do wear the PFD when they are on the boat.I belive smaller crafts is a diffrent story and people just need to use there heads a little more when venturing out on a big lake in a small alum boat.I would not support a law making it manditory to wear PFD's.What happend for taking self responsibilty in making your own choices.If I had been the owner for the boat that just went down last week I would have made sure I had life jackets for everyone (and wearing them being on a small boat)before heading out.I dont think everyone needs to start throwing laws together when there are not that many drownings per year.It should be a personal choice.Next thing you know when a few more people start falling thru the Ice while fishing they will make it manditory for PDF's,becareful what you ask for.
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[Carp_Punisher]

[#505000]It very much is a personal choice, but one that has a pretty HUGE impact on a whole lot of people. The point I'm making above is it very much is a personal choice, but we need to stop thinking about it in terms of "if I drown, or get tossed out of my car and die it's my own stupid fault, and I pay the consequences of it". I am a big proponent of personal responsibility. Sometimes we look at it in way too narrow of a scope though. [/#505000]
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[#505000]You do pay the consequences for it, your wife, your kids, public safety, and everyone who pays taxes pay for your personal choice. If you are willing to pay an ungodly monthly premium for "personal choice insurance" [] to pay the costs of the search and rescue, counseling for anyone involved in dealing with and cleaning up the results of your personal choice including your family, rescue workers, and insurance benefits and wages to support your family for the rest of their lives while you are gone I will buy your argument. [/#505000]
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[#505000]Since the potential negative consequences of your personal choice directly affects everyone in the form of tax dollars spent recovring your body. Affects the rescue crews, and your family I think it's not unreasonable for the citizens and lawmakers to impose on your personal choices in a few areas.[/#505000]

[size 1]If I remember right this was a free country[/size]

[#505000]No offense, and don't take this as a personal attack this is pointed toward everyone and anyone who reads it, but I get tired of the above quoted excuse being used for everything.[/#505000]
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[#505000]Free country means you are free to own a gun, free to attend whatever church you like, free to voice an opinion without worrying about government reprisals, free from unreasonable search and seziure, due process, and free from self incrimination. These are the freedoms men have bled and died for.[/#505000]
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[#505000] Read the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The term "Free Country" to too many means free to do whatever they want, and they cry anytime a law is put in place that affects them and cry their freedoms are being taken away. That's not and never was the case. [/#505000]
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[#505000]We aren't free from having to follow and obey laws put into place to protect our selves, our property, public interest, and our government. We never were and we never will be. We are free only in those freedoms guaranteed in the Bill of Rights and Constitution.[/#505000]
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[#505000]With the free country argument I can say it's a free country nobody can impose a bag or slot limit on my fishing activities. License fees? I'm not paying license fees it's a free country. Unless you understand what it means don't try and use it as an argument against legal and reasonable laws. [/#505000]
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[#505000]If we want to have a fit about losing our freedoms we need to worry about the anti-gun lobby. Some would argue the 4th amendment is under attack as well. Those are potentially REAL threats to our freedoms![/#505000]
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[utfishguy31]

Carp,

I understand there has to be laws that we have to have,but seatbelt laws or PFD laws are not as needed such as the licenses and bag limits speeding laws (traffic Laws)..ect.It should be a freedom of choice.Its just like the cell phone issue while driving a car..ok..lets ban eating in a car or lets ban radios in a car..oh wait lets ban passengers in a car they are all distractions and things will happen its called life.I am just saying don't start and let the goverment dictate on your personal rights..if i choose not to wear a seatbelt then its my choice its my fault.How does EVERYONE who pays taxes pay for my choice??I pay plenty of taxes myself so like everyone else who pays has those services if we need them,what do you think there for???Maybe if we had the thinking of "well its there own fault let them deal with it" are taxes would be lower so we wouldn't have to pay for those tax payers funded programs.There are dumb people out ther that make dumb choices dont make the rest of use be made to do somthing we don't agree with when its a small percentage of the population.

(just for the record I am greatful for all of the police,firemen,and search and rescue men and women out there I have family in those services and they are needed)
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[Carp_Punisher]

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[size 1]Maybe if we had the thinking of "well its there own fault let them deal with it" are taxes would be lower so we wouldn't have to pay for those tax payers funded programs.[/size]

[#505000][size 2]A search and rescue operation of the magnitude of what they are doing at Strawberry costs 10's of thousands if not 100's of thousands of dollars. Are you suggesting if someone drowns in a lake, we say... [/size][/#505000]
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[#505000][size 2]"It's their own fault they should have been wearing a PFD. Hope a fisherman, or one of the power squadron calls us if the body turns up." ???[/size][/#505000]
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[#505000][size 2]Or do you suggest we send the family the bill? If we send the bill it would easily take all money from life insurance to cover what we can and we can get the rest from the family through lifetime payments which will eventually cover the remaining balance.[/size][/#505000]
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[#505000][size 2]The idea is not to limit personal freedom as it is to take some easy steps and make usage mandatory to eliminate having to pick either of the above scenarios. [/size][/#505000]
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[#505000][size 2]As long as tax payers foot the bills for these horribly expensive operations. As long as public saftey has to deal with the gruesome outcome of these situations, and as long as families have to deal with the worry and grief of these situations I think it's pretty selfish to sit back and say it is our right not to have to wear PFDs. [/size][/#505000]

How does EVERYONE who pays taxes pay for my choice??I pay plenty of taxes myself so like everyone else who pays has those services if we need them,what do you think there for???

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[#505000]I think I addressed how everyone gets to foot the bill of a recovery operation. Yes the money is avaliable for these operations to an extent. It is in a budget; however long involved searches like the Strawberry search chew through an entire years budget in no time. If another major search is needed the money has to come from somewhere else. Another program suffers because of it. This money could be better used to educate kids, pay for improvements to our favorite lakes, and god forbid even lower taxes if we aren't spending the money. [/#505000]
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[#505000]There are a million and one places this money could be better spent. One knuckle head not wearing or having a PFD is potentially taking thousands of dollars away from other programs, including the DWR. How about less fish stocking because we spent all the money searching for "soggy Larry"?[/#505000]
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[#505000]Let's look at an alternative.... [/#505000]
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[#505000]Instead of a law making usage of PFD's mandatory, which would "violate someone's right" to make a personal choice let's let the users pay the costs. Instead of tax payer funded search and rescue for those who get in trouble or drown, let's let those people who boat, and swim fund the program. Let's add a $200 per year fee for search and rescue to all annual water craft registrations, and $50 onto fishing and hunting license fees. Let's also add a $20 per head walk in fee for all the lakes in the state. Since that would be hard to collect that fee at each lake, you would need a state swimming license to swim outside of a public or private pool. We also lose a lot of hunters, hikers, and skiiers each year so how about tacking on a hiking/skiing license too if you want to go anywhere off trail. If we go over budget? Well we raise the fee the next year to cover the shortfall. [/#505000]
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[#505000]That should about cover the costs of these body recovery and search and rescue operations. Seems to me a mandatory PFD law is a lot more reasonable, a lot less restrictive, and impacts the personal choice a lot less than making users pay for recovery operations through fees and tolls. [/#505000]
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[#505000]Let "Soggy Larry", the guy, who think's he's too good a swimmer pay a fine for not wearing his PFD, and let the word get out from him it cost him $75 and you'll see a lot more PFD's and usage go up, and costs associated with people not using their heads, and not using their safety gear go down. [/#505000]
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[#505000]No offense utfishguy31 but your arguments don't hold any water. Trying to compare this to cellphone driving and eating in a car (both bad ideas) is a smoke and mirror tactic to cover an issue which is apples versus oranges if compared to PFD usage. Your argument is good justification for you not to use your PFD, without taking anyone or anything else into consideration. [/#505000]
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[#505000]When you look at the big picture a mandatory PFD law makes a whole lot of sense, and will save a lot of lives. Those who are already doing it won't notice a difference, and those who aren't doing it SHOULD BE, we can talk education till we turn blue in the face but I think it's crystal clear education isn't working and even those who know better won't do it unless made to. [/#505000]
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[#505000]I'm wrong on a lot of issues but I think when you weigh all that is involved with this one, most people can't help but come to the conclusion that far more is involved in a single PFD mishap, than someone's personal choice. I think all of us wish it could be as simple, and easy as you make it out to be with minimal to no impact on anyone but the person who has died, but that simpily isn't reality. The fact is people not wearing PFD's literally cost the government (ultimately tax payers) millions of dollars a year. Wasted money that could be better spent elsewhere. [/#505000]
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[#505000]Man I love a good debate!! [cool][/#505000]
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[lunkerhunter2]

WOW!!! I have to take a deep breath after that one C.P.! Very good response.[cool]
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[kokeking]

CP,I can clearly see that you have no trouble with government telling you how to live your life.If thats works for you then great.It just don't work for me.You want a law that will make it mandatory to wear a pfd.Then the question begs to be asked ,whats next.Should we all be wrapped in bubble wrap before we leave the house,so that no one will get hurt?Society is full of dangers.


Most states already have laws that state ,boater's are to have a pfd for everyone on board.Why do we need more laws,why not enforce the laws we already have?These pfd's are to be readily accessible.According to a Wyoming Game and fish officer,that means that they are to be with arms reach.,Not stored under the seat cushions,or in a ski locker.

Fine the people that won't obey the laws that we have .Make the fines stiff when some one in found to be in violation.Us "knuckleheads" your words ,want the right to make a choice for ourselves,not to have another law shoved down our throats.

As for having to pay other peoples stupidity.that part of living in a free society.People will always do stupid things,and make mistakes,some times with deadly consequences. Like the old saying you can't legislate stupidly.
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[cadresults]

ANARCHY; Pronunciation[/url][an-er-kee] Pronunciation Key[/url] - Show IPA Pronunciation[/url]
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy. 3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society. 4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.

---

[Origin: 1530–40; (< MF anarchie or ML anarchia) < Gk, anarchía lawlessness, lit., lack of a leader, equiv. to ánarch(os) leaderless (an- [url "http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=an-"]an-[/url]1 + arch(ós) leader + -os adj. suffix) + -ia [url "http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-y"]-y[/url]3]
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[utfishguy31]

Carp,

I understand your points..I agree with some of them to a point.When people start fires on a mountian they are responsible for the partial costs,maybe they should do the same for search and rescue.I still belive that the seat belt law and a PFD law is wrong and its a personal choice .Are we going to have to start and wear them while ice fishing,to me theres a greater risk then fishing in a boat.Not to offend anyone in here but there are a few stupied guys who like to put themselves in danger by walking on 3/4" of ice to catch a stupied fish and say they were the first ones out on the lake,Its called self responsibilty and you choose to be careless with yourself then you must deal with the results ..My usuage of the cell phone and other distractions in a car does apply to this debate becasue of the seatblet law..tThe goverment is telling me I have to wear one in my own car,they also want to ban cell phone usuage while driving..My point is you are Always going to have accedints and if you take the total population and the people who drown or get lost and its a very small percent,dont make the majority pay for these emergencys with laws. Call me cold hearted but if someone does't want to be prepared,have emergency plans,supplys and ignor the risk of being on a lake in a boat or in the back country (snowmobiling,hiking.ect.) then they deserve what they go thru.There are alot of ignort people (non educated) that cause most of these emergencys.
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[Carp_Punisher]

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[size 1]CP,I can clearly see that you have no trouble with government telling you how to live your life.If thats works for you then great.It just don't work for me.You want a law that will make it mandatory to wear a pfd.Then the question begs to be asked ,whats next.Should we all be wrapped in bubble wrap before we leave the house,so that no one will get hurt?Society is full of dangers. [/size]

[/size][#505000]That's not what I'm saying at all. I am for smaller government all the way around... HOWEVER.....[/#505000]
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[#505000]With an issue like PFD's and Seatbelts if it just affected the poor SOB who didn't want to use it I would say more power to the poor SOB it's his choice. Since it affects and costs so much for everyone else when not used THEN and only THEN do I think it should be made mandatory. [/#505000]
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[#505000]A slight inconvience for you saves millions of tax dollars and a lot of grief and heart aches for familes. Seems a pretty small price pay. [/#505000]
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[#505000]I'm going to be a little rude here and say from those who are opposed I am hearing a lot of very selfish...[/#505000]
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[#505000]"ME ME ME"
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[#505000]Take a step back and look at the big picture. quite frankly it's not all about you ("you" being anyone of the persoanl choice crowd) it's about YOUR familes, and everybody who has to foot the bill.[/#505000]
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[#505000]I would rather spend the $500,000 spend looking for a body on something worth while. I would guess your families would trade in all the life insurance settlements in the world to have a dead father and husband back. It's not about the you's it's about those you leave behind. [/#505000]
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[#505000]As far as the cellphone thing goes it is apples and oranges. I'm talking about basic safety equipment not added driver distractions. However for another topic and another debate I will tell you studies have shown, and my real life experience has shown cellphone talking drivers are as poor of drivers as those who are DUI. [/#505000]
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[utfishguy31]

Carp,

I guess you can call me selfish,I don't think I am a selfish person.Your missing my point about the cell phone in a car.Tell me how many drownings happend this year on utah waters...I would say under 10??? that was reported.Now you have over a million citizens in Utah what does that make the percentage???..0.02% of the population die from drowning per year??What about laws that we all have to wear parachutes on commerical airlines becasue of the chance of crashing.I don't think there are the numbers of drownings that would get the the changed.Its VERY when someone dies from drowning,but the goverment should not impose on your freedom of choice wether to wear a PFD or not.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this subject.I personally think there needs to be more enforcement of the current laws that are in place.We will never stop having drownings when you have people piling into and not having the enough PFD's for everyone in cannos,small boats..ect.. on big waters or even smaller waters.That owner of the boat should be fined for not having enough PFD's on his craft like the law states.Its though he will have to live with that mistake for the rest of his life.
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[kokeking]

Well it's good to know that I went from a "knucklehead" to a "sorry selfish SOB" just because I want the right to think for my self.I have stated my opinion as to why I think a mandatory pfd law is a bad idea.For that I'm told I'm a "sorry selfish sob".So now I guess if this ever becomes a law I will have to live with it,or face reciveing a fine.People like carp think that I need the government to tell me how to be personally responsible for my family and for myself.I don't have any more to say on this subject,I guess time will tell as to which way the winds blow.
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[guppyslayer]

PFD's..what the HE** is wrong with some peeps.

I fish regularly...not as much as some do on these boards...but much more than the average fisherman. I wear a PFD most of the time. The times that i do not???...it's usually in shallow water, meanin less than 5 ft depth and within a short swim of the shoreline.

I fish often with my father...we can be bootin down the river at 35mph+ and he won't wear his pfd...he always keeps it next to his seat...and says..hey if sthing happens..i can put it on.

I have heard SO many stories of peeps who disappeared into the depths..."hey, he was a good swimmer"...blah, blah, blah

the chances that peeps take with their lives....HARD TO UNDERSTAND!

[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]Your dad sounds like my dad used to be. One of my favorite expressions has always been: "You can tell an old fool. You just can't tell 'em much."[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]One of the reminders someone posted earlier, on another thread (about the Strawberry drownings) is that merely keeping a PFD "handy" may not be good enough. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Another one of my favorite sayings is that if you think NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE...try dribbling a football. That is almost as difficult as getting your PFD on and adjusting it while you are in shock after being dumped in the water when you weren't expecting it. It is tough enough to experiment with that in a warm swimming pool, in the middle of summer. Don't wait until you have to try it in hypothermia conditions to realize how tough it is.[/#0000ff]
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