pontoon boat frame failures

[cpierce]

I am looking at both new and used pontoons, so I have some questions for all you knowledgeable people.

I know that there have been some frame failures in some pontoon boats. What I am wondering is if there is any particular models that have most of the problems. And if the failures are due to something like rust.

Is there anything that could have been watched out for, or if there was an area that could have been painted or reinforced ahead of time? On a used model what would you check?

So if you had a failure or know of a failure could you say what model and why you think it failed? And could you say if you think there was something you or the manufacturer could have done to improve or prevent it.

Thanks!!
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]You probably read my post about Hnaf having his toon come apart on our haul to shore. That was only his second trip in that toon. And it was a replacement for the first one that had similar problems. It was a Classic Accessories toon, like are sold under the Trout Unlimited labels.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Hnaf's father is a professional welder by trade. He looked at the original model and pronounced it to have inferior welds...I think the term was "cold welding" or something like that.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I have heard of other weld failures on pontoons and almost invariably it happens on lightweight models that are made for first time tooners or those who buy on a budget. It is a good example of the old saying about getting what you pay for. "Good things are usually not cheap...and cheap things are usually not good."[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I am sure you will get good input from some of the more serious tooners on the board.[/#0000ff]
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[cpierce]

Thanks TD,
Does anyone know if this is the same brand that Costco is selling?

Inexpensive doesn't always mean shoddy, but unfortunately it is getting to be more the rule.

We have some pontoons that were sold and branded by Sportsmans. I don't have a clue who made them. They were very inexpensive (on sale too!), and we have had them for at least 10 or 12 years.

Mine took a flying leap out of the back of our truck. (Inexpensive or old tie downs???) The frame bent in several places, but I am pleased to say that not a single weld failed!!! Not that that does me much good. We'll fix it, but I am still looking at a replacement, and the other will be a hand me down.
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[Hnaf]

My pontoon(s) are the Classic Accessories Arrow Backpacker model. This is made by the same people that make the other boat sold under the classic accessories name as well as trout unlimited and a number of others. Costco and Wallmart both sell product from this manufacturer.

The little story I can add to what TD has said for what I went through here is that the first pontoon frame didn't fail on me out in the water. I was up at Strawberry last fall during the deer hunt with my family. I was one day in camp that I was chatting with my father and we were looking at the frame that he started to point out the low quality welds that he called "cold welds", meaning the weld did not penetrate both pieces of pipe the weld was to hold together effectively. In fact we could get my finger nail under the edge of one side of the weld on the same 2 joints that very dramatically failed on me yesterday with TD up at willard. One thing my father kept pointing out is a bad cold weld will also let in moisture inside the weld for areas it is not properly done and then you have a rust issue from the inside of the welds which you can't inspect well as you care for your craft. My father is a mechanical engineer as well as a trained welder so I use and lean on his understanding for such things a lot.

So when I went to Classic Accessories on the first frame issue that we caught before a disaster out on the water I had to play a lot of phone tag and push a lot for an answer but after a week of working with them I was told I was getting a replacement frame and that they felt that what I had was just a frame from a bad batch and they were very nice about it. Then I found it funny and a nice perk when the new frame showed up as a full new boat in box. So first thing I did was to pull the frame out and inspect it. The manufacturing of this new boat defiantly looked better to "my eye" so I showed my father this one and he said well it looks better but look they ground the welds down to look nice when painted so that makes it harder to see if the welds were good welds or bad welds doctored up. That said though he did say that he thought what he could see did look better. So now I'm at the end of the fishing season for me last year and I don't get to go out until this spring and as TD pointed out after just a couple trips this NEW frame dramatically failed on me yesterday.

Last night I had my father look at the failed frame and on both joints that failed he can see evidence that both were partially "cold welds" again. Areas where the weld pulled off one section of tube and the exposed section of tube shows no indication it was "attached via weld" to anything.

I have contacted Classic Accessories again and sent them pictures and description of what happened. I have pointed out that my personal weight and gear weight are well under the documented limits of this craft. I received a reply from them farily fast that said they would look into the issue and get back with me. This is similar to the last time so I'll give them a day or two and them check back with them. So the jury is still out on how they handle this event and what they propose to insure it doesn't happen again.

Last thing I'll point out is the tube diameter of my model as compared to the others this brand name carries. I believe only the Cimarron and the Arrow Backpacker use this diameter of tubing. There is a chance that the Kenai and Deleware models also share this tube diameter but I'm unsure. The others like the Colorado and Rogue models which are the two models I've most seen sold by wallmart and costco use larger diameter tubing and that is part of what makes those other models heavier. So you will have more surface area for the welds in those joints and that "should" give a stronger joint. I know that a few other BFT folks on here have used for many trips and over a year some of those models without having joints fail like I have now had twice. So that leaves me wondering more about this specific model in how it is either designed or fabricated in a way that makes it prone to failure.
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[pontoonman]

The tubing on these "packable" models that are lightweight is very thin. There have been weld failures while on the water in some cases from what I read under some ratings last year. It is very difficult to weld thinwall and get a strong joint, because you either get a cold weld or burn through either of which weakens the area. If the weld is located in a load bearing area it is especially vulnerable. Most if not all comes from China where they sometimes cut corners with their mass production machines. You might get lucky with strong welds or not. Hand brazed joints would be better, but then labor cost and price would go up.

Pon

[quote Hnaf]My pontoon(s) are the Classic Accessories Arrow Backpacker model. This is made by the same people that make the other boat sold under the classic accessories name as well as trout unlimited and a number of others. Costco and Wallmart both sell product from this manufacturer.

The little story I can add to what TD has said for what I went through here is that the first pontoon frame didn't fail on me out in the water. I was up at Strawberry last fall during the deer hunt with my family. I was one day in camp that I was chatting with my father and we were looking at the frame that he started to point out the low quality welds that he called "cold welds", meaning the weld did not penetrate both pieces of pipe the weld was to hold together effectively. In fact we could get my finger nail under the edge of one side of the weld on the same 2 joints that very dramatically failed on me yesterday with TD up at willard. One thing my father kept pointing out is a bad cold weld will also let in moisture inside the weld for areas it is not properly done and then you have a rust issue from the inside of the welds which you can't inspect well as you care for your craft. My father is a mechanical engineer as well as a trained welder so I use and lean on his understanding for such things a lot.

So when I went to Classic Accessories on the first frame issue that we caught before a disaster out on the water I had to play a lot of phone tag and push a lot for an answer but after a week of working with them I was told I was getting a replacement frame and that they felt that what I had was just a frame from a bad batch and they were very nice about it. Then I found it funny and a nice perk when the new frame showed up as a full new boat in box. So first thing I did was to pull the frame out and inspect it. The manufacturing of this new boat defiantly looked better to "my eye" so I showed my father this one and he said well it looks better but look they ground the welds down to look nice when painted so that makes it harder to see if the welds were good welds or bad welds doctored up. That said though he did say that he thought what he could see did look better. So now I'm at the end of the fishing season for me last year and I don't get to go out until this spring and as TD pointed out after just a couple trips this NEW frame dramatically failed on me yesterday.

Last night I had my father look at the failed frame and on both joints that failed he can see evidence that both were partially "cold welds" again. Areas where the weld pulled off one section of tube and the exposed section of tube shows no indication it was "attached via weld" to anything.

I have contacted Classic Accessories again and sent them pictures and description of what happened. I have pointed out that my personal weight and gear weight are well under the documented limits of this craft. I received a reply from them farily fast that said they would look into the issue and get back with me. This is similar to the last time so I'll give them a day or two and them check back with them. So the jury is still out on how they handle this event and what they propose to insure it doesn't happen again.

Last thing I'll point out is the tube diameter of my model as compared to the others this brand name carries. I believe only the Cimarron and the Arrow Backpacker use this diameter of tubing. There is a chance that the Kenai and Deleware models also share this tube diameter but I'm unsure. The others like the Colorado and Rogue models which are the two models I've most seen sold by wallmart and costco use larger diameter tubing and that is part of what makes those other models heavier. So you will have more surface area for the welds in those joints and that "should" give a stronger joint. I know that a few other BFT folks on here have used for many trips and over a year some of those models without having joints fail like I have now had twice. So that leaves me wondering more about this specific model in how it is either designed or fabricated in a way that makes it prone to failure.[/quote]
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[albinotrout]

This is good to know. my nephew wants a toon and I can pass this info on to him when he starts looking aroind.
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[flygoddess]

China also does not have the same quality control that we do.
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[michaelnel]

You can't have a frame failure on a boat that doesn't have a frame. Check the North Fork Outdoors frameless, bladderless Outlaw Escape, Renegade, Rampage and Challenger series. They have some pretty good prices right now.
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[flygoddess]

But my Outlaw does have a frame[shocked], he, he, he
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[michaelnel]

I listed the frameless models. Your Outlaw X5 isnj't on the list.
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[flygoddess]

LOL[cool]...plus USA made[] U meaning UTAH!!
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[KsPete]

All this talk about frame failures prompted me to check my Rogue SP. For the most part, the welds looked solid but there was one weld that had popped off. It was one of two welds that attached a seat rail to the crosspiece. I'm not sure there's a chance for failure because the other weld looks good, but I'm not taking any chances, I'm going to weld it myself. I have the equipment, I've done quite a lot of hobby welding, so I don't think it will be a problem.
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[molopo23]

When I hear frame failure, the first that comes to mind would be the cimarron pontoon. I have read more bad than good reviews.

Depending on your budget, the Sport XR from creek company looks good for a basic toon.
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[idahoron]

While we are talking about frames and the ODC line.
I have the Creek Company ODC Classic, and Sport. Both look the same other than color.
Both of the ODC boats I have are good boats but you need to learn to set the boat up right. The first time I took it out I had the frame WAY too far back. I contacted FG and talked to her. I also talked to several other people and even the factory. For one thing I had a fair amount of weight on but not as much as a motor and battery. So I knew I had to be doing something wrong.
In these pictures you can see where the strap is. This first one has the strap going through the oar bracket. The second one shows how that rides. The last one is when I got the frame right.
There are some things I like a lot about these pontoons. I like that I can let the air out take off the foot pegs and fold up the bags. The foot print of the folded up pontoon is 40"x50". It is easy to get around and handy to fish out of.
Things I don't like are it is hard to get the frame right and get it to ride level. It also doesn't track that great. Maybe that is me, I don't know. The last thing I wish it had PVC on the bottom to protect it from rocks, fishhooks, and other poky things. The frame it's self seems to be strong. I would have to be doing something rough to be worried about frame failure. Ron





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[molopo23]

ron,

I noticed the lack of PVC bottom on the Sport XR model. How is yours holding up?

I went to Cabelas today and they only had one. The problem was that the box looked like it had been opened and taped back again.

Last time I heard, some businesses have been receiving merchandise returns, taping them back and putting them back in the shelves (this case floor).

Maybe I am a bit paranoid but I want to buy something brand new in an unopened box, lol!

[idahoron]

Well so far so good. The lack of a PVC bottom is worrisome for me too. The craft is worth the 200 dollars they were brand new. For still water or slow water, and if a guy is careful I think they are ok. Ron
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[KsPete]

I need to make a correction. A closer look at the "missing" weld on my seat frame revealed that it was not a weld that was missing, it was paint. I assumed the worst when I saw the rust and concluded that the weld had popped off. Sorry about that. I think a little wire brushing and some Rustoleum and it'll be good. Overall, the welds on this model look good, so I think I can set my mind at ease.
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[molopo23]

Ron,

Did you had to reinforce the cargo deck on your ODC classic? I can't tell just by the mesh covering. Is it just the frame around and some straps in the center area?

Still thinking about either the classic or the sport xr model. In other words, rigid vs mesh cargo deck.

Thanks.
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[idahoron]

The cargo deck has a tube frame and is very ridged.
I did not have to make it more ridged.
The mesh is to keep stuff from falling through the tube frame. I flat deck would be nice. There is more to the difference than just the deck. If you look at the way the pontoon is made there is a BIG difference. You can see the way the rockers are on mine. And look at the Sport XR. The sport XR has a LOT more pontoon under the water. This would make it MUCH easier to get the balance right on the frame. I do think that the Sport XR would also track better as you ar rowing because of the extra length under water. Also the Sport XR does have a motor mount.
Here is the deal though. For 500 dollars I think I would want one with PVC on the bottom of the pontoons. I wish mine had that. I worry about it getting a poke by a thorn or even a fish or a fish hook. I think the Sport XR is a good boat but for 500 I think you could get a better one. Ron
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[molopo23]

Oh no I am talking about the regular Sport XR (not the Super XR). Plus you can't count on the website price. Cabelas has it for 250.

Still, good points about the bottoms.
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