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Hi, I have an old trolling moter, I beleive it's 18lb thrust. I really want to minimize the weight on my tube so I wondering what the smallest battery I should consider is?
Would [url "http://cgi.ebay.ca/UNIVERSAL-D5745-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Batteries-12V-18-AH-/390132028953?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad5ae5619"]this[/url] battery (assuming its deep cycle) work?
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[cool][#0000ff]It would work...for a while. But if you used it for a deep cycle battery it would probably not hold up very long. (see #2 on the list of specs...do not totally discharge).[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Better to invest a few more bucks to get a battery that is designed for deep cycle use...like a wheelchair battery. Attached is a pic of one I bought for about $85. It is 33 amp/hour and only weighs a little over 20 pounds.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]With an 18# thrust motor you should get several hours of "normal" use from the smaller batteries. But, as always, it is a combination of speed setting, drag on your tube with you in it, motor efficiency, wind speed and direction, etc.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]You will not be able to make long runs back and forth across the lake at high speed settings. Nor will you be able to maintain any kind of trolling speed. But, for getting from point A to point B faster than kicking...and to help you get back through the wind...you will enjoy being powered.[/#0000ff]
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Thanks T/D I figured you would chime in on this.
[#bf0000]"You will not be able to make long runs back and forth across the lake at high speed settings. Nor will you be able to maintain any kind of trolling speed"[/#bf0000]
[#bf0000][/#bf0000]
[#000000]Can you elaborate on the above statement, please?[/#000000]
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[cool][#0000ff]Pure and simple...your motor will not pull/push you through the water with as much efficiency as you would get if you were on top of the water...in a toon or small boat. Takes more power to move you the same distance...at a slower speed. There is a lot of drag when you have your legs in the water and anything else...like fish baskets, transducers, etc.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]So...it might be possible to power a toon across the lake fairly quickly, on medium settings. But, to move your fully loaded tube the same distance would probably take much longer on higher speed settings. There is a lot of difference between skimming across the top of the water and plowing through it. You use more power to go slower and for shorter distances.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There are no exact tables set up to convert battery power and motor size to amp hours used on any specific float tube. You just have to make the best choice you can and do everything possible to get the best use out of whatever power you have in your battery. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It will likely take a few trips with varying useage to see how much juice you need for a particular trip. You should have a voltage tester to check the output of your battery both before the trip and after returning. A capacity tester helps too. It will let you know how much power you still have left. But it is not an accurate guage of how much longer your motor will work. As the voltage decreases the output and efficiency decreases. So even on high settings you might just inch along when your battery starts dropping down in voltage.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In short a battery does not keep operating at full power until it is drained. So it is not a valid assumption that a 33 amp/hour battery will put out maximum power up until it has used 33 amps. That's why it is a good idea to buy the biggest and best battery you can afford...and fit in your craft...rather than trying to cut corners on cost or size. The wrong time to find out that your battery can't push you any further is when you are trying to get back to your vehicle against a stiff breeze in the wrong direction.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]If somebody wants power on their craft to allow them to make longer runs away from their launch site...or to troll for several hours on battery power...they need to consider a toon or small boat. Much more efficient. On a float tube the motor is strictly for short hops and auxiliary power when needed.[/#0000ff]
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That's the best and most accurate explanation I have seen, TD!
Just a couple of things I would add. Cold weather severely affects battery voltage and capacity, so everything may be cut in half or more, come the cold season. You can improve range and speed considerably by having your legs out of the water, if there is some way to do it. I use a foot bar on my ODC 420 for this and other purposes like keeping my feet dry. There are electronic watt meters that can serve as a good fuel guage, but they are expensive. A simple and cheap voltmeter/ampmeter can be calibrated to give reasonable estimates as a fuel guage. You can save battery power by reading the wind and currents to minimize draw down, even if it means going around a longer route.
Hope this helps.
Pon
[quote TubeDude][cool][#0000ff]Pure and simple...your motor will not pull/push you through the water with as much efficiency as you would get if you were on top of the water...in a toon or small boat. Takes more power to move you the same distance...at a slower speed. There is a lot of drag when you have your legs in the water and anything else...like fish baskets, transducers, etc.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]So...it might be possible to power a toon across the lake fairly quickly, on medium settings. But, to move your fully loaded tube the same distance would probably take much longer on higher speed settings. There is a lot of difference between skimming across the top of the water and plowing through it. You use more power to go slower and for shorter distances.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There are no exact tables set up to convert battery power and motor size to amp hours used on any specific float tube. You just have to make the best choice you can and do everything possible to get the best use out of whatever power you have in your battery. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It will likely take a few trips with varying useage to see how much juice you need for a particular trip. You should have a voltage tester to check the output of your battery both before the trip and after returning. A capacity tester helps too. It will let you know how much power you still have left. But it is not an accurate guage of how much longer your motor will work. As the voltage decreases the output and efficiency decreases. So even on high settings you might just inch along when your battery starts dropping down in voltage.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In short a battery does not keep operating at full power until it is drained. So it is not a valid assumption that a 33 amp/hour battery will put out maximum power up until it has used 33 amps. That's why it is a good idea to buy the biggest and best battery you can afford...and fit in your craft...rather than trying to cut corners on cost or size. The wrong time to find out that your battery can't push you any further is when you are trying to get back to your vehicle against a stiff breeze in the wrong direction.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]If somebody wants power on their craft to allow them to make longer runs away from their launch site...or to troll for several hours on battery power...they need to consider a toon or small boat. Much more efficient. On a float tube the motor is strictly for short hops and auxiliary power when needed.[/#0000ff][/quote]
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[quote TubeDude][cool][#0000ff]Pure and simple...your motor will not pull/push you through the water with as much efficiency as you would get if you were on top of the water...in a toon or small boat. Takes more power to move you the same distance...at a slower speed. There is a lot of drag when you have your legs in the water and anything else...like fish baskets, transducers, etc.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]So...it might be possible to power a toon across the lake fairly quickly, on medium settings. But, to move your fully loaded tube the same distance would probably take much longer on higher speed settings. There is a lot of difference between skimming across the top of the water and plowing through it. You use more power to go slower and for shorter distances.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There are no exact tables set up to convert battery power and motor size to amp hours used on any specific float tube. You just have to make the best choice you can and do everything possible to get the best use out of whatever power you have in your battery. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It will likely take a few trips with varying useage to see how much juice you need for a particular trip. You should have a voltage tester to check the output of your battery both before the trip and after returning. A capacity tester helps too. It will let you know how much power you still have left. But it is not an accurate guage of how much longer your motor will work. As the voltage decreases the output and efficiency decreases. So even on high settings you might just inch along when your battery starts dropping down in voltage.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In short a battery does not keep operating at full power until it is drained. So it is not a valid assumption that a 33 amp/hour battery will put out maximum power up until it has used 33 amps. That's why it is a good idea to buy the biggest and best battery you can afford...and fit in your craft...rather than trying to cut corners on cost or size. The wrong time to find out that your battery can't push you any further is when you are trying to get back to your vehicle against a stiff breeze in the wrong direction.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]If somebody wants power on their craft to allow them to make longer runs away from their launch site...or to troll for several hours on battery power...they need to consider a toon or small boat. Much more efficient. On a float tube the motor is strictly for short hops and auxiliary power when needed.[/#0000ff][/quote]
A little surprised by this answer (going back to May reports), but absolutely.
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[cool][#0000ff]Good point about the effect of temperatures on battery life. Here in Utah that is a biggie. Some of our best fishing occurs during late fall and early spring when air temps are kinda chilly. If you don't have insulation for your battery you could find yourself out of juice a long time before you planned on it...if you were figuring on the same performance you got in warmer months.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff] I have been thinking about converting one of my small coolers to a battery box for cold weather power tubing.[/#0000ff]
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Tube Dude-
I Like your Idea of having a cooler! Will keep the battery dry too. And thanks for the detailed explanation...so all this being said, is a smaller electric motor "generally" more efficient then a larger motor? Just curious
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I like that 33ah battery. Is it the one U useing right now?
And if so, how do you like it ?
Peter
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That's a good idea about the battery box. I use a heating pad with timer around my electric bike batteries during winter, so everything is set up before work. That way I get full summer range and speed even at 40 degrees to the drop point. Don't have an electric source where I park so my range and speed is halved on a cold day returning home.
Pon
[quote TubeDude][cool][#0000ff]Good point about the effect of temperatures on battery life. Here in Utah that is a biggie. Some of our best fishing occurs during late fall and early spring when air temps are kinda chilly. If you don't have insulation for your battery you could find yourself out of juice a long time before you planned on it...if you were figuring on the same performance you got in warmer months.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff] I have been thinking about converting one of my small coolers to a battery box for cold weather power tubing.[/#0000ff][/quote]
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I never thought of the weather as far as the battery on my pontoon. I do bring the batteries from the boats and the trailer indoors in the winter, but on my pontoon, never thought about it.
Figure the water would be too hard for my pontoon when it effects the battery...[  ]
I have been out in 20° degrees on several occasions and battery was just fine, but not sitting on ice.
Dave Scaddens video has the ice chest/battery box, so people have been doing if for awhile.
I never thought of it as weather protection, more spillage.
Now ice fishing I get.[cool]
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[quote atvaholic]Tube Dude-
I Like your Idea of having a cooler! Will keep the battery dry too. And thanks for the detailed explanation...so all this being said, is a smaller electric motor "generally" more efficient then a larger motor? Just curious[/quote]
[cool][#0000ff]Not sure that "efficient" is the word I would use. Simple physics tells us that you can only get as much energy from a stored supply as you put into it (battery)...and there are a lot of factors that influence output so that there is no guarantee that you will get back everything you put in. Kinda like marriage. But your question was about motors. The two are obviously related. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]A smaller motor will consume less energy per hour than a larger motor, but that does not mean it is more efficient. A good example would be that a smaller motor might not have the power to get you back to your vehicle if the wind is blowing at a certain speed. The output of the motor is completely negated by the force of the wind. A larger motor would consume more power but would have enough output to get you back faster. Which is most efficient?[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Of course that is not the type of example you wanted. But there are also a lot of things electronic that can affect energy consumption and long term performance too. The basic age and condition of both the motor and the battery can have an impact on the life of the battery and the power output of the motor. And, as we have just pointed out, temperature conditions can affect performance too.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Some modern motors have enhancements that can help maximize the use of applied power...and reduce the amount of battery juice wasted in heat production instead of turning the prop. It is all energy...propulsion or heat. And, from that standpoint, a larger motor JUST MIGHT convert more of the energy into propulsion than heat. I have heard it stated that way but do not have written corroboration that it is true.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In a roundabout way, I am saying that smaller is not better than bigger or vice versa...strictly from an efficiency standpoint. Your choice of battery and motor should be made based upon space and weight considerations, monetary budget and how you intend to use the system. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]A small battery and small motor will serve you adequately if you merely want a power boost now and then...and if speed and distance are not critical. However, if you plan to really use your motor a lot...for long runs or for extended low speed trolling or bottom bouncing...you should invest in a good motor and a big battery.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Have I been suitably vague?[/#0000ff]
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[quote peter805]I like that 33ah battery. Is it the one U useing right now?
And if so, how do you like it ?
Peter[/quote]
[cool][#0000ff]I have 3 batteries...the 33, an 80 and a 115 ah. I bought the two larger batteries from a fishing buddy who was doing a makeover on his boat and they were almost new. I figured they would provide good candidates for installing and testing different size batteries on my craft so that I could get a real life read on them and how they perform.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I do really like the 33. It is a true deep cycle battery, designed for extensive use in charging and draining. It seems to put out good power almost clear down to the end...but I have never run out of juice with it yet. Have used about 25 amps on it a couple of trips but it was still going strong. And that was after a couple of runs at top power setting on my motor and several shorter runs on mid range power...and then coming most of the way back in on full power.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]But, I have had too many situations in the past where weather conditions changed unexpectedly and I had to hurt myself by kicking a long ways back against the wind. I like the idea of having all the power I might potentially need to get myself out of those situations.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Kinda like I have always said..."It is good to have a raincoat and not need it. Better than needing it and not having it."[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I keep the 33 in rotation, for shorter trips where I am pretty sure I will not need more than an occasional power boost. Definitely lighter and takes less space when you don't need the big boys.[/#0000ff]
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I had a small 6' Pontoon in which I had a small Minn Kota 28? on. It is still going to this day and cut through the water quite nicely.
I then bought a Cardiac Canyon. It was 11 1/2' long with small 12" diameter pontoons. I used a Minn Kota 30 on it for 9 years. Because of very small foot print so to speak, that Pontoon flew on #1.
Using it off and on I could get a full day or even two days. Like TD said, when wind kicked up and I had to go 3 or 4, that drained the battery (the large one).
I now have an Outlaw X5. It is 10'6" long and 16" diameter toon, but it is a U shape. The 30 just wasn't big enough. More drag, probably like the float tubes even though the X5 still only lays out two long footprints.
I bought the MAXXUM 40 with a longer shaft. First noticed the prop is identical to the Minn Kota 30.
My last outing was 3 days with up to 3' waves as Cpierce can attest to. The battery had 12.64 after three days of use left.
I do full heartedly agree, right size battery and motor for whatever boat equals optimum results.
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I agree on the difficult conditions of that Idaho reservoir. The wind and waves were really nasty!! It is a good battery and set up that made it 3 days without a recharge in those conditions!
Bottom line is get the largest battery that you can manage, and I don't think you will regret it. If you really have problems lifting the weight of a larger battery, then you might consider getting two of the "lawn tractor/wheelchair" deep cell batteries for longer excursions. It would be an expensive solution, but as one is discharged you can switch over to the fresh battery. They do weigh considerably less and can be carried one at a time to your toon, but would be a small pain to have to switch over. The pair would also take up about as much space and have a combined weight as a larger battery.
I have the 85 amp hr size 24 battery and it has lasted me just fine for one day excursions. But I don't troll much. It isn't as large or weigh nearly as much as the size 27 -larger amp hr battery.
I have a very old Minn Kota 24# which works OK with both my Renegade and my Fish Cat 4. Some day I will probably upgrade to a Minn Kota 30#. But for now I am not fast, but it supplements my kicking if I want or need it to. So far it has brought me back off of some reservoirs in some very ugly conditions, as when FlyGoddess was up here.
It works for me -- find what works for you!
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I seeeeee. Now it all starting to make sense.
thank you
Peter
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Here is something interesting. Heat (or above 77 °) shortens the life of that battery:
Even though battery capacity at high temperatures is higher, battery life is shortened. Battery capacity is reduced by 50% at -22 degrees F - but battery LIFE increases by about 60%. Battery life is reduced at higher temperatures - for every 15 degrees F over 77, battery life is cut in half. This holds true for ANY type of Lead-Acid battery, whether sealed, gelled, AGM, industrial or whatever. This is actually not as bad as it seems, as the battery will tend to average out the good and bad times. Click on the small graph to see a full size chart of temperature vs capacity.
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Thanks for all the informative response! Especially Tubedude (who is most definitly a physics professor).
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use the 85 amp hour battery from costco on my toon and mamatrouts FC4. They seem to work fine for both craft.
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"Here is something interesting. Heat (or above 77 °) shortens the life of that battery:"
[cool][#0000ff]Definitely in agreement on that one. While I lived in Arizona I got used to having to replace car batteries almost every year. Didn't matter if they were guaranteed for 5 years...several months of 100 degree plus days and those batteries were toast. You could get a warranty replacement but that was little consolation when you were down some long desert road, out of cell phone service, with a dead battery. I had to hike several miles in 108 degree heat one time to get someone to drive me back and jump start my vehicle...where TubeBabe was waiting and fretting among the rattlesnakes.[/#0000ff]
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