Posts: 63
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2011
Reputation:
0
I've never been out to the Knolls so when I heard about the clean-up I decided to go help and check it out. What a DUMP! Anyone who's ever been there knows what i'm talkin about. I cant even begin to describe how much trash is there. There was probably 40 - 50 people there helping with the clean-up and i'm guessing there was about 2000 pounds of trash removed. Thats right 2000[mad]. It's nice to see there's people that do care what our land looks like as opposed to those who obviously dont give a crap. The amount of trash scattererd around was(is) crazy. Not just wrappers and cans but socks, underwear, glass, fishing line, used toilet paper and TONS of used diapers. I heard at least 4 people say they picked up 20 - 30 diapers each. I probably did about the same. So if your one of those lazy ass people that cant put that crap in the trash then stay off our recreation land. From the type of trash I saw it's clear there's a specific group of individuals that don't give a crap. We live a beautiful state with awesome outdoor activities at our fingertips, its to bad to see this kind of attitude people have. I hope if you see people leaving trash behind I hope you will call them out on it. My guess is the majority of the people fishing over there dont have a licence and have to worry about be asked to show one. Maybe the presence of some officers will help detour these type of people?
[signature]
Posts: 368
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2010
Reputation:
0
"South of the border trash"
Not saying your wrong as I'm sure there is good evidence as to your thought. But honestly I've seen many good proud American blooded guys throw their beer cans and trash straight from there boat into the water. I've seen groups of American teens leave behind enough trash to fill a bath tub so really I don't think it is nessesary to blame "south of the border trash" for the majority of our mess.
Not all of the people that you see that have a darker skin tone is an illegal that just hopped the fence and is stealing from our country... It's tiresome to hear how they are illegals and mess is all there fault. I've fished on multiple occasions with some fellas I met out on the banks that just wanted to fish and relax that happened to be of a darker skin tone that were absolutely great people. Try not to bring race into the problem mate...
Of course maybe I'm just biased as I grew up in Southern California 10 miles from the border most my life haha..
Though on a side note thanks a TON for your help, especially the fact that you don't even fish at that water and still went out and helped! Great job mate
[signature]
Posts: 35,999
Threads: 295
Joined: Sep 2002
Reputation:
57
[cool][#0000ff]It is evident that you have not spent any time at the Knolls. I have...and I agree with RM1. By far the greatest problem is with our hispanic brethren...and sistern. I have also seen plenty of redneck goobers leaving piles of trash, but they are literally in the minority.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I am not a racist either. I also was reared largely in southern Cal and have a great appreciation for Mexico and its peoples. I have traveled, fished and dived extensively in Mexico and speak pretty good Spanish. Two of my sons have married senoritas and the culture is strong in our family.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]That's why I know who the large groups are that set up camps in the free access area of the knolls and take out nothing they bring in...leaving piles of cans with Spanish language labels and beer cans and bottles from Mexican breweries. The dirty diapers they leave are probably USA made but I don't check labels on those. And the loud music they "share" with everybody on the lake is not redneck, asian or any other culture. It is clearly what it is...Mexican.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]These folks violate the trespass ordinances by crossing the fence and fishing on private land...and trashing that too. They also use illegal fishing methods (set lines) and generally do not have fishing licenses at all (verified by sheriffs and DWR COs who check them).[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]What is worse is that the criminal element among them has found the Knolls to be a good place to operate. There have been increasing numbers of unattended vehicles (boaters and tubers) who have returned to find broken windows and cleaned out trucks and cars. And there are also direct confrontations and robberies by small groups who seek out solitary individuals or small unprotected groups. And the perpetrators speak Spanish. I know. I have had to show my weapon on a couple of occasions.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]On still other occasions I have had to use my 4 wheel drive to go up around groups that had camped in the middle of the access roads and blocked entrance to anybody else. And because I speak Spanish, I know what the profanity and anti American remarks were that followed me as I drove around them. As a rule they are far more racist and derogatory toward gringos than any of us ever dare to be towards them. They know nothing of being politically correct.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]To set things straight...I also have had contact with some great folks down there. And whenever I get a chance to help someone I do. I have rigged gear, donated bait and supplied some of my own lures to more than a few "dark skinned" anglers at the Knolls. In my eyes, everybody is a good person until they go out of their way to prove otherwise.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Until that area is taken over and managed...and until there is a fee for access...it will remain an area popular with those who use only free camping areas and who care not about trashing it. And yes, that includes all races and nationalities.[/#0000ff]
[signature]
Posts: 63
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2011
Reputation:
0
First let me apologize for the wording of that pic. I didnt mean for it to come across sounding like people "south of the border" are trash. I too grew up in North San Diego County, lived there for 27 years before I moved out here. I know a lot of wonderful " dark skinned people". Im not a racist just a realist. I call it how I see it and based on what I saw first hand yesterday after 3 hours of clean up. I worked on an area of shoreline about 150 yards long by 50 yards wide and after 6 contractor grade trash bags, 4 tires, 1 busted up chair, hundreds of Carona, Dos Equise, Tecate, mango fruit drink cans, corn husks, and spanish food labels and three gallons of broken glass ( and thats just the small area I covered) it's easy to see who the majority of the problem is coming from over there. I understand that ALL kinds of people litter. I dont care if your white, brown, black or blue. I do however have problem with people trashing where we live and play. I have met a lot of nice people of different races while fishing and enjoy the company of other anglers so long as they are respectful to others and the environment around them.
[signature]
Posts: 484
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation:
0
Well said TD.
[signature]
Posts: 106
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2010
Reputation:
0
Posts: 5,964
Threads: 1
Joined: Jan 2003
Reputation:
0
Us Rednecks dont leave our beer cans and bottles laying on the shore, Jeff foxworthy taught us to fill those puppies up with water and sink them to the bottom
[signature]
Posts: 438
Threads: 0
Joined: Jul 2008
Reputation:
0
I think its called having "pride in our country."
I shows what litters think of our country.
[signature]
Posts: 368
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2010
Reputation:
0
Well in that case I'll retract my comment. I have never fished there and didn't know the details, sorry bout that. Hope they figure out a way that they can crack down on that because it doesn't sound like it will fix itself what so ever.
[signature]
Posts: 368
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2010
Reputation:
0
Sorry Rich about the accusations I just took it differently and read it after I spent a day with my guys in the Marines and we all pretty well spent the day talking about races and how it doesn't matter.
I was quite honestly very impressed that you would go help clean somewhere that wouldn't effect you. Of course maybe your just sucking up to the fish gods for some luck later eh eh?? [  ][ ]
[signature]
Posts: 368
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2010
Reputation:
0
Too funny mate! Haha that explains the glass I step on when I am diving and tooning [ ][ ]
[signature]
Posts: 35,999
Threads: 295
Joined: Sep 2002
Reputation:
57
[cool][#0000ff]No problem. Hope you don't think I was attacking you in any way. I was merely trying to explain that in this case the main cause of the problem is VERY clear...and there is nothing about being politically correct involved. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I am normally one of the first to jump in when I think someone is being overly racist in their posts or personal comments. No reason for that. We can do without bigotry and personal prejudices.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Over the past few years I have hauled out a lot of trash myself...and have confronted a few folks that appeared to be leaving without cleaning up. That is a good way to start an international incident...and some of those guys are "carrying". Not smart.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Just to lend some pictorial support to my allegations, here are a few I have collected.[/#0000ff]
[signature]
Posts: 2,436
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2004
Reputation:
0
I have to disagree with some of your pictures, Pat.
The posted land you show looks like it is illegally posted, something I will move to have clarified. The bottom of UT lake is public to the ordinary high water mark of 4489 feet above sea level. The fence extends beyond that point, the sign is also beyond that point.
The pictures you have of people fishing, it looks like every one of them is below the ordinary high water mark as evidenced by the change in color of the rocks.
[signature]
Posts: 35,999
Threads: 295
Joined: Sep 2002
Reputation:
57
[cool][#0000ff]Disagree all you want but that entire area IS posted and there are signs all along the fence...all the way to Hwy 68. And the people who go down to fish usually get to the lake by going through or over the fence well away from the water...and often destroy or damage the fence...as well as leaving trash all over the property. They know nothing of their rights and care little about laws.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The property owners graze cattle on that land and have had incidents of their cattle being wounded or killed by trespassers. If they find someone back there they are within their rights to "defend" their property. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The fence extends out into the lake to hold cattle in...not to keep people out. Cows can't read. And the sign is for year round conditions and not just low water periods. For much of this year there has been no "beach" below the high water line. But that has not kept out the trespassers. Virtually all of them have been walking and fishing above the high water mark...as if that makes any difference to people who are trespassing anyway.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]The law does specify that the public may use the land below the high water mark but it does not allow access by trespassing over posted land. It is just like the Lincoln Beach area. You can come in from the lake...by boat or float tube...but you are not allowed to walk or drive across the posted property.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]And by the way, Lincoln Beach used to be open to public access...until the happy trashers got it closed for everybody. That is what I fear will happen to the Knolls area.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[signature]
Posts: 623
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2009
Reputation:
0
Please, no need to apologize when you are right. You should see what I have seen at Willard. If you want to find who is leaving the garbage just follow the trail of cans empty juice boxes water bottles exct.
[signature]
Posts: 2,436
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2004
Reputation:
0
Doesn't mater what the fence is doing or what the water level is, the public OWNS the LAND below the water and all land within the 4489' elevation mark of UT lake. Some of that land looks to be illegally posted. The acts will be found out and the land owner will be forced to comply with the law.
Don't get me wrong, if your above that line, you are tresspassing, but below that line is public property.
Your pictures show people sitting below that line, they are not trespassing in your picures.
The public OWNS the land below the ordinary high water mark, and has the right to use it. This is not an easement, this is public ownership. No you cannot "walk or drive across private land to access OUR land", but you may wade or walk at or below the ordinary high water mark to access it.
The fine people of the great state of UT just took back some illegally posted land in Provo Canyon where the RR bridge crosses, and we intend to take back any other land that we discover is illegally posted.
[signature]
Posts: 895
Threads: 0
Joined: Sep 2009
Reputation:
0
Oh man! The ILLEGALFISHING pic is showing one of the most popular trees in that area where folks hop the fence and set up camp. I was fishing over there during the white bass spawn this year with BigFishTaco. They were handlining and not really having any success much to the chagrin of their kids. I am fairly fluent in Spanish since I grew up in Texas and the kids were whining about how fast the fat guy in the floaty thing was catching fish. They probably thought I was laughing at them not catching fish but I was just laughing at the insults in Spanish. I caught a few more then one of the older gents decided he would move up to the water's edge and pee in the lake. I decided I didn't want that money shot and kicked away muy rapido.
[signature]
Posts: 35,999
Threads: 295
Joined: Sep 2002
Reputation:
57
[cool][#0000ff]I have been fishing from my tube along there a couple of times when the "squatters" decided I was ruining their fishing...or lack thereof. So they started throwing rocks at me. Fortunately I was out of range so I was merely torqued and not damaged. I guess I should have apologized for infringing upon their rights.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I too have observed them using the area as their own personal latrine...#1 and #2. They got no class and no shame. Also very unsanitary and probably doesn't do much for the coliform bacteria counts in the water. But they are the only ones who swim in it so I guess it is a "wash".[/#0000ff]
[signature]
Posts: 69
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2009
Reputation:
0
So what's next TubeDude?
Was the clean up a waste of time or is some law enforcement agency set up to better patrol that area? It would be a shame to have all those people waste their time, money and energy if there is not a solution to the problem and it just continues to get trashed.
I see a BLM officer out there periodically along with the DWR a County Sherrif. But, obviously there needs to be more enforcement. Just what are the plans?
Kudo's to the people that did spend time cleaning up. It must have been a heck of a chore.
[signature]
Posts: 35,999
Threads: 295
Joined: Sep 2002
Reputation:
57
[cool][#0000ff]Any effort to clean up a mess is never completely wasted time. But it is sometimes frustrating to see how quickly the problem returns. As I stated, there will always be a problem there because there is just too much real estate for officers to cover and too little manpower and other resources.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Not sure whether that is state or county property but there have been discussions about fencing it off and restricting access to the public...mostly because of the trash problems. However, there has also been an increase in other "illegal" activities in that remote and largely unpatrolled area. I hope it does not come down to that.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Always good to see an organized effort to do what should not have to be done...like trash cleanup. Sadly, there are several smaller groups each year that take on the task of de-trashing the Knolls. I know of a couple of scout troops that cart off a bunch of junk periodically. But it doesn't take long to see the mess growing again. Kinda like coat hangers...multiplies in the dark.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]That was one of my first thoughts after receiving the following email notice from Chris Crockett: How long will it take before you would never know the area had been cleaned up?[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
I'd like to thank everyone who came out to help with the Utah Lake Shoreline Cleanup at the Knolls on Saturday. We had approximately 40 volunteers and collected over 2300 pounds of garbage.
Saratoga Springs and the Utah County North Point Landfill were gracious enough to waive dumping fees at their facilities.
Thanks again
Chris Crockett
Native Aquatics Project Leader
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
(801) 491-5655
[url "wlmailhtml:{61D7A269-CB08-4213-8924-C9BEFF1ADBB3}mid://00000005/!x-usc:mailto:chriscrockett@utah.gov"]chriscrockett@utah.gov[/url]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I had kinda planned to make a fishing trip there either later this week or the first of next week. I will post pics of any new trash piles I see...before I fill a couple of my own plastic bags. Wish I had a dollar for every bag I have hauled out of there. Heck, I just wish I had a dollar.[/#0000ff]
[signature]
|
