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I was just surfing the net and somehow got on the subject of the carp removal project on utah lake and as I looked at what Google images had to show, I saw a lot of "collateral damage" in the way of white bass and walleye being hauled in. Having only seen the load of carp being brought to shore once in my life by the family that nets them(back in the 80's), I never really took the time to notice if any other species were brought in also.
My question for those of you that may know is this. Are the walleye, white bass and catfish taking a big hit by the current carp eradication program also, or are they mostly unaffected? If the nets are not gill nets, but seines, I can see how the larger fish could come through the system being relatively none the worse for wear, but the white bass could still be gilled and drown.
Does anybody know difinitively how this is affecting the other species being taken as by-catch? I'm not judging and am all for the carp being taken out if for no other reason than to see if the scientists are right about it being a solution to the improvement of habitat for suckers and the health of the lake in general. I have read how some are claiming the white bass are fewer and farther between the last couple of years and I'm curious if this could be affecting their numbers or if it is just coincidental to the carp project.
BTW, I'm absolutely not trying to stir the pot with this question by riling up pro-walleye guys or some other equally passionate crowd, just thinking my curiosity could be satisfied by some of you here on this site that may have seen or have personal knowledge or insight pertaining to this matter.
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The "by catch" as it is called is pretty controlled. All game fish, walleye, catfish, LMB, etc have to be returned to the lake. White bass, crappie, bluegill, bullheads can be kept, per contract with DWR. So, impact is minimal on most species. As you know, there is not a lack of WB in the lake.
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White bass, crappies, bluegills and bullheads are game fish too. Are they just too small to be saved in order for the nets to work for carp? In all honesty, those are some of my favorite fish to try and catch on Utah lake. Seems like a waste of good fish if they are just grinding those up too with the carp, but maybe it's just not avoidable. I wonder if it's always been allowed or if it's just allowed now that they are trying to get rid of 40 million pounds of carp?
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Zero negative impact.
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[quote gmwahl]White bass, crappies, bluegills and bullheads are game fish too. Are they just too small to be saved in order for the nets to work for carp? In all honesty, those are some of my favorite fish to try and catch on Utah lake. Seems like a waste of good fish if they are just grinding those up too with the carp, but maybe it's just not avoidable. I wonder if it's always been allowed or if it's just allowed now that they are trying to get rid of 40 million pounds of carp?[/quote]
1. The white bass, bullheads and other fish are sold commercially by the Loys, assuming a market is available, and there usually is. They are not wasted.
2. The last I heard, somebody proposed adding crappie to the allowable harvestable bycatch, but I don't know if it was approved. At the time of the public forums, bluegills weren't allowed to be harvested, but that may have changed too. What tends to happen though is that the smaller panfish and whities get pounded pretty bad in the nets by the thrashing carp and many either don't survive or are beaten up fairly badly.
3. The way the Loys target carp in open water, they tend not to catch large numbers of structure loving fish like bluegills and largemouths, but occasionally do get some and every now and then, get a lot.
4. Before the carp removal and the PCB findings, the Loys could sell their carp more easily and their COR only allowed them to keep carp and white bass. It is true that what they can keep has expanded some more recently.
5. I agree with BG1. Minimal impact for the game fish in question. I will say that I expect the bluegill and crappie numbers to decline in the coming years for 2 other reasons; the lower water levels and the phragmites removal. Bluegills and crappie seemed to really like the phrag. Maybe the carp removal will work to a point where the native grasses will return. That would work as a decent substitute.
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I don't know I've wondered the same thing. Lots of people here say it has minimal effects but I really don't understand how it could be that hard to put the fish back in the water. So I say why not put the fish back?
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I call BS with saying that by catch kills of white bass and other game fish are insignificant. Any game fish killed is a fish we don't have the chance to fish for. You have to look at the whole picture. They are not netting one or two loads of carp. They are netting carp EVERY day. Therefore white bass and other game fish are also being killed at huge rates EVERY day. That massive a netting operation to eradicate the ENTIRE lake of carp inevitably will kill a HUGE amount of gamefish in the by catch daily. If this were to happen one day, or a week, it won't amount to much, but it is happening every day. The impact is extremely significant………..but of course it's going to be rhetorically downplayed. Anything for the precious sucker. I will continue to support the carp netting project by releasing every carp I catch. Hopefully it will spawn a million babies so they keep busy or else they will find other things to kill…….like eliminating non native gamefish in the lake entirely.
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The Loys have been doing this for decades and there has been no decline in the quality of fishing. Again, I don't believe that the numbers of fish taken is very significant overall. I have observed the process and they usually have 1-2 5gal. buckets at the most. I have seen other situations where sosme of out ethnic anglers have filled the bed of a full size pickup with WB, so where is the impact !!
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I'm sure the gamefish will survive this. I'm pretty sure that the carp will too, I hope I'm wrong. I wonder if the balance can be tipped enough so that the carp numbers will never be able to get up to the previous numbers because of competition from the remaining fish. I doubt it, but I'm totally hoping I'm wrong.
I can't help but wonder if the overall size of the white bass may increase as a result of the white bass by-catch? I have never personally seen them set or haul their nets, so I can't speak with intelligence as to the by-catch mortality of the other large fish such as walleyes and catfish, but by looking at the pictures of the hauls they make on the Internet it appears that the white bass get harvested pretty heavy. Maybe thats not a bad thing though, who knows.
Do they set nets all over or just goshen bay and other certain areas? Seems like it would take a coordinated netting effort all over the lake at one time to really be effective. If they only pulled 4 million pounds per year out, by the time they hit 40 million, the others they missed the first year would be 10 years old and spawning like crazy. Seems like an impossible task really, but like I said before, I wonder if the "balance" can be permanently tipped by this and sustained?
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[#0000FF]I have been both on the ice and in the water during carp seining hauls. My personal evaluation is that some non-carp catching is unavoidable. But from what I have seen it is not enough to seriously impact populations of any of the non-carp species. As has been mentioned, no more than a very few walleyes, largemouths, crappies or other species are caught up with the carp. Even when there are quite a few white bass in any given haul the kill is far less than what a few fishermen harvest on a good day fishing. And typically, there is only one or two net sets on any given day and rarely every day of the week.
It is illogical to point any fingers of blame at the carp seining operation. Just as pointless to point at angling pressure. There are vastly more inroads made on various fish populations by the rise and fall of water levels, seasonal variations, shoreline enhancement or degradation, etc. In short, people have very little actual impact on the fisheries of any species.
Unfortunately, I think that is true of the carp too. Some of us can remember past years in which it seemed that the commercial carp operation was removing even more carp than they are today. The main difference is that now they have assigned quotas and they get paid to net them...regardless of market price.
An average sized female carp can spew out hundreds of thousands of eggs. It only takes a few successfully spawning female carp to entirely replace every carp netted in any given year. Thankfully there are other carp killers at work too.
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That's good to hear. I'm definitely not pointing fingers and I'm all for their operation. I know they've been doing it as long or longer than ive been around. I'm sure the by catch is no different as well. My question had more to do with the scale at which the carping was taking place and if it affects the game fish more. I wasn't aware that there were others doing this aside from the Loy's. that would make more sense because there is no way that just that one family is going to fish out enough carp to matter.
It's an interesting project anyway and my personal opinion is that I hope they can do some real damage to the carp , but I suspect that they are just peeing on a forest fire (metaphorically speaking).
It would be interesting to see the winter operation though. Sounds fascinating!
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Do you, or anyone else know what year they started the carp removal program?
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[#0000FF]To the best of my knowledge, the Loy family seining operation is the only one contracted by the June Sucker Program for carp removal.
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[quote FishMcFisherson]Do you, or anyone else know what year they started the carp removal program?[/quote]
[#0000FF]Can't provide an exact date but thought it was about 2008. The June Sucker Recovery Program posted a video on Utube in November of 2009 so that would be about right. Here's the video.[/#0000FF]
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Hmmm... I thought I had heard somewhere they Loys had been doing in for a lot longer than that.
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[#0000FF]That is only about how long they have been under contract for the June Sucker Program. They have actually been commercially seining and selling carp from Utah Lake going back to the early 1900s. In earlier years they sold tons of carp to the ethnic food markets in big cities...and to animal farms, like the mink operations in Utah.
I have also heard others (besides myself) speculate that the Loys used to remove more carp each year than they are now doing under contract. Didn't destroy the carp population (or other species) then, so how will it do a better job now?
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Hey TD, reading about the Carp at UL posed a question.
I remember several years ago when you could almost walk across Willard Bay by stepping from Carp to Carp. Then there was some kind of massive kill and there were Carp carcasses everywhere. Since then I have seen Carp and caught a few, but nothing like the years before. What was that that killed all those Carp, did it affect any other fish in WB, and would it be possible to recreate whatever that was and use it a UL?
Hey, just a curiosity thing.
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[#0000FF]Yes, there was an apparent carp catastrophe a few years ago. Seems like all species have periodic "adjustments" in their populations but seldom with carp. Haven't heard of anything definitive. Not like the "carp aids" virus that was discovered in (I think) Lake Mojave. Even if they were able to isolate that virus and mass produce it for use as a treatment for specific waters it would likely take many years of research before it could be cleared for actual use. Until biologists know all of the potential "side effects" and how the virus MIGHT affect other species it will remain as only a potential for the future. Highly doubtful it would EVER be approved for use in Utah Lake unless it could be proven beyond doubt that it wouldn't also croak June suckers.
While there are a lot of carp in Willard, they are a much smaller percentage of the biomass than they are in Utah Lake. As with several other Utah ponds with carp in the ecosystem Willard carp are not currently a major detriment to the fishery.
In fact, if not for carp, many of the predators in Willard might go hungry at times. Gizzard shad are the primary forage species in Willard but they spawn later than the carp do. The young of both species grow quickly and the carp reach edible size before those of the shad. So baby carp are heavily munched before the baby shad are big enough to produce boils. In short, there is enough predation on carp...from eggs to adults...to help keep the population of carp in most lakes at a manageable level.
One of the best carp eradicators is a 30 inch solid fiberglass fish arrow.
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[#0000ff]
One of the best carp eradicators is a 30 inch solid fiberglass fish arrow.
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LOL, yep, have seen that done. OK, thanks TD. You have helped answer one of those questions in the category of "things that make you go,.....hmmmm."
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Wow, I don't profess to know everything, but if the Loy's are the only ones, that seems like it would play into their best interest to keep this think going on as long as possible. Wouldn't surprise me if they used to catch more. Then again, with the sheer amount of carp in that lake I am extremely skeptical that they can make much of an impact on the carp. Without the benefit to the lake of competition for the available resources (carp), I just don't see an incentive to catch substantially more, or even the capability to catch too many more. Seems to me that if the Feds were really serious about getting the carp out of the picture then they should have opened up contracts available to however many operations are willing to step forward and help clean them out. Like I said earlier, without the netting going on on a massive scale in dozens and dozens of spots simultaneously, it just doesn't sound realistic to get ahead of the carp. Fish out goshen bay and American fork would still be pumping plenty of spawners to fill in and repopulate the fished out spot.
Well, I guess my curiosity is satisfied for now, its my birthday today and I'm gonna go cattin' on cutler for the rest of the day, gonna test out the big bait/big fish theory! I'll solve the states problems in my head while fishing and dreaming[  ] Cheers!
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