01-19-2007, 10:38 AM
[black][size 3]Hey NETO,[/size][/black]
[black][size 3] [/size][/black]
[black][size 3]I checked with a couple of my colleagues (fellow Biologists, but they are professionally more closely involved with aquatic species than I) and they pointed me to a few images of the hybrids of which I have attached a couple below. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]They seemed to be quite understanding about our little discussion and the possibility for some confusion. They were also both in agreement that my somewhat premature psuedo-positive ID(or almost anyone else's attempted ID that is not a Fisheries Biologist experienced with those specific species) from a photo alone, would be highly subject to speculation. As a scientist myself, I would also have to agree - inspite of the fact that I did try to shoot from the hip and do it. And, as you've probably noticed, upon that realization, I also edited my post and attempted an almost immediate and hasty retraction of said identification. It could be called scientific self skepticism. Or, as I like to look at it - it's the process of refusing to believe what I think. In others words; when there was some doubt about the accuracy of my first shot, I went ahead and emptied my clip in that direction.[/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]Anyway, Both of my associates seemed to be under the impression that if the two species were present in the body of water in question, and had been there for a long time, that the existance of hybrids would almost be a certainty, and the possiblity of those hybrids reproducing was also quite probable. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]In the hybrid bluegill/sunfish there is about a 90% male ratio so it is not too likely that full scale hybridization would occur, but more likely that specific characteristics could become predominant due to environmental, individual reproductive opportunity, and oddly enough, luck. Like color for example, or some other physical trait. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]The offspring will inherit characteristics from both parents, but not so predictably as to the point of being able to come up with an exact standard for them - probably due to the great variations possible within the two parent species. There is also the potential that the hybrid, being viable itself, could lend characteristic traits back to both species' parental gene pools, thereby influencing the original species themselves. An interesting circular causality kind of catch 22 from my perspective. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3]One example extended to me was this analogy. The Sunfish hybrid is more like the Saugeye than the Wiper when it comes to comparing the offspring to the parent. I understood it more or less, as I can more easily differentiate a Wiper from a Striper or White bass, than I can a Saugeye from a Sauger or a Walleye when they are all the same size. However, I have to admit that it would probably make much more sense to the professional in aquaculture or marine biology who extended it to me, than it does to me as a biologist who just fishes. Nevertheless, I suspect that a clearer understanding of that information would not make the fillets of the fish any less tasty. [/size][/black]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3]After my conversations with them, I emailed the photo of your fish(both the pre and post doctored ones) to them for review. However, I did that prior to seeing your last suite of CSI pictures. I have not heard back from either yet, but I am quite sure that I will as soon as they can do so - we suffered through the University experience together, and do keep in fairly regular contact. [/size]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]Anyway...Here are a couple the ones I got refered to as official images of the hybrids. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3] [/size][/black]
[black][size 3]This is one from the University of Arkansas.[/size][/black]
[inline hybridbream.jpg]
[black][size 3]This is from Langston.[/size][/black]
[inline hybridbluegill.jpg]
[size 3]Bottom line for me so far - there seems to be a good deal of potential variation within both species and the hybrids of them. And, since there could be some confusion, I will wait for a legitimate professional to tell me the intricate potential genetic technicalities, or the facinating geneaological details[/size][size 3] of possible panfish infidelity in our beloved waters. [/size]
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[black][size 3] [/size][/black]
[black][size 3]I checked with a couple of my colleagues (fellow Biologists, but they are professionally more closely involved with aquatic species than I) and they pointed me to a few images of the hybrids of which I have attached a couple below. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]They seemed to be quite understanding about our little discussion and the possibility for some confusion. They were also both in agreement that my somewhat premature psuedo-positive ID(or almost anyone else's attempted ID that is not a Fisheries Biologist experienced with those specific species) from a photo alone, would be highly subject to speculation. As a scientist myself, I would also have to agree - inspite of the fact that I did try to shoot from the hip and do it. And, as you've probably noticed, upon that realization, I also edited my post and attempted an almost immediate and hasty retraction of said identification. It could be called scientific self skepticism. Or, as I like to look at it - it's the process of refusing to believe what I think. In others words; when there was some doubt about the accuracy of my first shot, I went ahead and emptied my clip in that direction.[/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]Anyway, Both of my associates seemed to be under the impression that if the two species were present in the body of water in question, and had been there for a long time, that the existance of hybrids would almost be a certainty, and the possiblity of those hybrids reproducing was also quite probable. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]In the hybrid bluegill/sunfish there is about a 90% male ratio so it is not too likely that full scale hybridization would occur, but more likely that specific characteristics could become predominant due to environmental, individual reproductive opportunity, and oddly enough, luck. Like color for example, or some other physical trait. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]The offspring will inherit characteristics from both parents, but not so predictably as to the point of being able to come up with an exact standard for them - probably due to the great variations possible within the two parent species. There is also the potential that the hybrid, being viable itself, could lend characteristic traits back to both species' parental gene pools, thereby influencing the original species themselves. An interesting circular causality kind of catch 22 from my perspective. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3]One example extended to me was this analogy. The Sunfish hybrid is more like the Saugeye than the Wiper when it comes to comparing the offspring to the parent. I understood it more or less, as I can more easily differentiate a Wiper from a Striper or White bass, than I can a Saugeye from a Sauger or a Walleye when they are all the same size. However, I have to admit that it would probably make much more sense to the professional in aquaculture or marine biology who extended it to me, than it does to me as a biologist who just fishes. Nevertheless, I suspect that a clearer understanding of that information would not make the fillets of the fish any less tasty. [/size][/black]
[size 3][/size]
[size 3]After my conversations with them, I emailed the photo of your fish(both the pre and post doctored ones) to them for review. However, I did that prior to seeing your last suite of CSI pictures. I have not heard back from either yet, but I am quite sure that I will as soon as they can do so - we suffered through the University experience together, and do keep in fairly regular contact. [/size]
[black][size 3][/size][/black]
[black][size 3]Anyway...Here are a couple the ones I got refered to as official images of the hybrids. [/size][/black]
[black][size 3] [/size][/black]
[black][size 3]This is one from the University of Arkansas.[/size][/black]
[inline hybridbream.jpg]
[black][size 3]This is from Langston.[/size][/black]
[inline hybridbluegill.jpg]
[size 3]Bottom line for me so far - there seems to be a good deal of potential variation within both species and the hybrids of them. And, since there could be some confusion, I will wait for a legitimate professional to tell me the intricate potential genetic technicalities, or the facinating geneaological details[/size][size 3] of possible panfish infidelity in our beloved waters. [/size]
[signature]