hey tube dude

[zman1]

what is your opinion on fresh minnows vs store minnows is there a differance im talking dead of coruse
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[bigearl]

While your at it- Does anyone use goldfish for cut bait? It seems to me that the color would help???
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[catfish-logic]

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I don't know you'll have to ask TubeDude.
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[Springbuck]

I used to know a guy with a small pet store that sold "feeder" fish like for people to ffed their snakes and large tropical fish. His tank would crash occasionally, so I told him to save me all the dead little goldfish, put them in really salty water and fridge them.

The couple times I have just killed the small kitties at Willard, I was using those with slip bobbers.
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[TubeDude]

[quote zman1]what is your opinion on fresh minnows vs store minnows is there a differance im talking dead of coruse[/quote]

[cool][#0000ff]My opinion is that fresh dead minnows are just about always better than some that have been frozen...or even some that have been in the refrigerator a few days before using...or some that have been left unrefrigerated for even a couple of hours.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Freshly caught minnows still have all the natural slime and scent of natural food. Once they die and are soaked in water or frozen, a lot of the "good stuff" comes off but there is usually plenty of flavor left for the predators. And you can improve that by sticking a few small holes in the minnows with an ice pick or point of a small sharp knife.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Another advantage of fresh minnows is that they usually nice and firm. The longer after a minnow croaks the mushier it gets. Chubs are not as bad as redside shiners but almost all minnows lose firmness once frozen. Some guys use salt on their minnows before freezing both to add flavor and to suck out some of the moisture and firm them up a bit. Another trick is to keep minnows frozen until you hit the water and use them just as they start to thaw. Easier to cut them when partially frozen without smashing them and they stay on the hook better. They finish thawing quickly in the water.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]In years past, it was possible to take minnow traps or cast nets to Strawberry and get a day's supply of minnows within a few minutes. Those fresh redsides and chubs were super bait for da Berry. Since the slot limits and more cutts have been put in, the minnow population has taken a dive and it is tough to get minnows there. But, if you can catch some somewhere else, the day before a trip...and keep them chilled...it is almost as good.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Ditto for Scofield. Until a couple of years ago you could score bajillions of minnows next to shore on spring fishing trips...and throughout much of the year. The tigers and larger cutts (slot limits) have seen a drop in the number of small minnows...especially redsides.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Electric Lake still has lots of redsides, and most knowledgeable E-Lakers plan to harvest their own bait when they hit the water. Good plan. The tigers and the cutties love fresh ones. But, there are reports of a declining minnow population since the tigers got a good finhold.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Not many other lakes that have a big enough minnow population that you can rely on catching bait on every trip. Better to find a good minnow hole, catch a bunch and then freeze them up for your own use in the future. If you freeze them right and thaw them right, they are almost as good as fresh dead...and much better than fishing without them on many waters.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]The minnows sold in some places are simply frozen on a meat tray with plastic wrap over the top. That may be okay for a short time but they quickly start to dehydrate and develop "freezer burn" once frozen. That affects both the texture and the scent of the minnows. Freezer burn causes molecular changes, especially in the fatty tissues, and they start to turn rancid in the presence of air. Much better to either use a vacuum bag or freeze them in a little water...with the air squeezed out...to prevent the problems of freezing on a tray, in the presence of air.[/#0000ff]
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[TubeDude]

[quote bigearl]While your at it- Does anyone use goldfish for cut bait? It seems to me that the color would help???[/quote]

[cool][#0000ff]Goldfish are carp...and they give off the familiar carpy scent in the water. Most fish recognize it and respond to it. Plus...the orange color of goldfish is a natural attractant to many predator species. Lots of the most effective lures use orange in their color patterns. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Bottom line? Goldfish are a great bait. Use them whole for cats or cut up for trout or smaller species. There are places around the country, where live bait is legal (almost every place but Utah), and a lot of the bait shops have tanks of goldfish for sale to anglers. But, strangely, some states prohibit the use of live ones not for the same reason as Utah but because goldfish ARE carp and have been known to cause problems by overpopulating a lake just like carp. Much prettier but still a problem.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I used to fish along the lower Colorado River in Arizona. A couple of bait shops there sold lots of large goldfish...up to a foot long (expensive) for use as bait for the big flathead cats that lived in the river locally. They accounted for more than a few catfish over 50 pounds. And the small goldfish worked pretty good on big largemouth bass too.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Koi carp are an exotic variety of Japanese goldfish. Some folks have dumped them (illegally of course) into the Jordan River and Utah Lake...and probably other places as well. It is always interesting to be walking along the shoreline and to see a flash of bright orange...maybe with some white or black in the more exotic color patterns. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Bottom line: If you have a cheap source of dead goldfish, put them on a hook and fish them. They are both legal and effective.[/#0000ff]
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[bigearl]

Thanks for the reply. I think I will be soaking some goldfish this spring in Cutler!
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[Northman]

Whats your take on strawberry and scofield? I don't remember ever seeing a post from you on either res.
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[TubeDude]

[cool][#0000ff]I have not fished Strawberry for over 30 years. Too many other places I like better. Don't like cutts. I have fished Scofield a few times in the past couple of years...since they planted tigers. But not my favorite lake. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I was born in Idaho and grew up with a troutin' fambly. Still like trout. A part of my heritage and I do enjoy tusslin' with feisty rainbows, browns and tigers. But if cutts are the main attraction, color me gone. Oh yeah, I also like brookies but have not caught one since I returned to Utah (from Arizona) six years ago. Gettin' too old for the Uintas and too lazy to drive to the Boulders.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Truth is I like the "warm water" species more. For ice fishing I prefer lakes that offer perch and/or walleyes. More of a challenge than hatchery pet rainbows...and better eating.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]I stay pretty close to the "action" on all the lakes, since I make lures for a few guys that fish them on a regular basis and they let me know what is working. I can also read the BFT reports...enough to let me know that I really don't miss the absurd cold, the slush and the crowds of Strawberry. I also don't care to drive all the way to Scofield just to play with dinks...even if there is a chance at something more substantial.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]That's my take. Take it or leave it.[/#0000ff]
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[Kent]

[quote bigearl]

Thanks for the reply. I think I will be soaking some goldfish this spring in Cutler!

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Be careful, the way I read the current Utah Fishing Guidebook (read pages 8 and 9) fishing with goldfish could get you a ticket (unless you can obtain some "Commercially prepared and chemically treated..." ones.
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[catfish-logic]

Here is from the 2010 Utah Fishing Fishing Proclamation.

You may already know this off of page 9:

Dead, fresh or frozen salt water species including sardines and anchovies may be used as bait in any water where bait is permitted.
Dead mountain sucker, white sucker, Utah sucker, redside shiner, speckled dace, mottled sculpin, fat head minnow, Utah chub and common carp may be used as bait in any water where bait is permitted.

[] I guess that includes goldfish?

The eggs of any species of fish caught in Utah, except prohibited fish, may be used in any water where bait is permitted.
Use of live crayfish for bait is legal only on the water where the crayfish is captured. It is unlawful to transport live crayfish away from the water where they were captured.
Commercially prepared and chemically treated baitfish or their parts may be used as bait in any water where bait is permitted.
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[Northman]

[cool]I'll take it. I enjoy both of them. I think that eight fish limit really took its toll on Scofield. Back when it was a four fish limit I could catch 16''-20'' rainbows very consistantly, and never caught any chubs. Then the DWR said that Scolfield was under utilized and implemented the eight fish limit. Now we have gone to a slot limit that in my opinion makes it hard for a rainbow to get big due to it having more harvest pressure, and plenty of chubs. I'm sure it will come back but as you said you have to go thru 20-40 fish to hook somthing with some size. Strawberrys rainbows seem to be making a comeback now that they are planting bigger fish and not feeding them to the cutts. This last year I pesonally did better for large bows on jordanelle... we will see what this year brings.[]
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[fishguru73]

I totally agree about fresh minnows. Of coarse, it isn't always easy to get fresh "dead" bait in a specific location where it is legal to employ the tactic. In Okiedelphia we used to net shad for jug and trot lining and we filled the bags with water so that the shad weren't exposed to freezer burn. I think that might be a good way to keep red side shiners too. So far as Zman's question about goldfish, I think that they are one of the most underrated baits for a lot of applications and I used to catch large flathead catfish with them. Dead shad drew in more channel and blue cats but a live goldfish or small carp got the flathead's attention a lot better. I'm sure they are equally effective for larger predatory fish in Utah.
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[TubeDude]

"we filled the bags with water so that the shad weren't exposed to freezer burn. I think that might be a good way to keep red side shiners too."

[cool][#0000ff]I freeze my minnows in plastic bags with just enough water to eliminate air (see pic). I squeeze out the excess air before I seal them. Too much water can leach out "flavor" and also expands when frozen. That contributes to "mushiness" by smashing the minnows as it freezes.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]I don't think there is ANY way to freeze redside shiners so that they are not soft when thawed. Believe me, I have been processing bait for many years and I have tried just about every know way to get a better end product with those things. Salting, partial dehydrating, vacuum sealing, flash freezing, etc. They still turn soft as soon as they are thawed. It does not seem to ruin their appeal to fish, but it does make it hard to keep them on the hook...especially if you have to cast them very far. About the best you can do sometimes is wrap them with some white cotton thread once you have them stuck on the hook. Not a universal solution but it adds to the durability a little. And sometimes the fish will whack the bait once and then return for the big gulp. If they knock the bait off the hook on the first "inquiry"...or if the jerk on the other end of the line does a power set and pulls the bait off...then there is no followup money munch.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]Always fun to keep trying new things.[/#0000ff]
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[fishguru73]

I'm certain you're right on the money about the best ways to preserve redsides and such. I've never really considered preserving minnows since I moved here because, with all the regulations, I prefer safe alternatives that don't require extra effort. In Oklahoma we went to places we could net enough shad in a throw net to keep us in trot line bait through summer and fall. If I wanted, I could get dozens of live shiners, rosies, or black shiners for a few bucks. They were awesome for night fishing in muddy water when the fish were homing in with their lateral lines with limited visibility. I prefer artificial and fly fishing because I like staying busy and covering the water as much as possible but there are many times when fresh bait is the better option. I have tried some of the preserved minnows in scented and salted variations a few times to see if I could get to the lake faster without having to make a pit stop and wasn't impressed with the results. It could be that anything that you can present dead here that resembles the bottom of the food chain is likely to work when live bait isn't constantly available on a hook. Your innovation is certainly useful and I appreciate the great advice as always.[] I think I might try some TD technique with dead bait this year and see if that will get the bite when the fishing is tough. The extra effort might pay off. Though, thank God for mealies, waxies, night crawlers, and white bass and perch chunks. Do you think that scenting minnows with stuff like kool-aid, anise oil, etc. tends to work better for certain fish or is it fishing lore in your experience?
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[TubeDude]

"Do you think that scenting minnows with stuff like kool-aid, anise oil, etc. tends to work better for certain fish or is it fishing lore in your experience?"

[cool][#0000ff]I have tried a lot of different "unnatural" scents on both lures and baits. Anise is a good scent for many species...especially trout. Garlic is also good for many species. Banana seems to be good for trout but not sure about others. The berry scents seem to work best for carp. Not sure about any other species.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]When I go afloat on Utah waters I usually carry only crawdad scent. Sometimes I take some shad. Rarely some sardine or anchovy. They all work at times but the crawdad is the most universal for me. I apply it to worms, carp meat and sometimes to minnows that have been dragged around a while.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]Mostly I stick with natural baits...as fresh and odiferous as possible. I don't rinse my cut bait as I process it, and use only a very small amount of water to freeze it. When I use frozen/thawed minnows I do not do anything to them or add any scent until I have fished them awhile. If I do not get bit within a reasonable time, I bring them in and poke a few holes in them with the point of a small knife. Many times I get bit quickly after perforating them to allow more scent to escape.[/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]I do believe in scents. If nothing else they help to cover up human odors...or the smell of gas or other contaminants. However, I do not believe in paying the ridiculous prices some of the exotic stuff costs. I have never found anything that works well enough to justify paying a whole lot of money more than the cheaper stuff. [/#0000ff]

[#0000ff]Basic knowledge of fish and their habits...together with being to find them and make good presentations are sometimes far more important than what flavoring you use. But, the right scent can sometimes help seal the deal.[/#0000ff]
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[Madman25]

[quote fishguru73]I'm certain you're right on the money about the best ways to preserve redsides and such. I've never really considered preserving minnows since I moved here because, with all the regulations, I prefer safe alternatives that don't require extra effort. In Oklahoma we went to places we could net enough shad in a throw net to keep us in trot line bait through summer and fall. If I wanted, I could get dozens of live shiners, rosies, or black shiners for a few bucks. They were awesome for night fishing in muddy water when the fish were homing in with their lateral lines with limited visibility. I prefer artificial and fly fishing because I like staying busy and covering the water as much as possible but there are many times when fresh bait is the better option. I have tried some of the preserved minnows in scented and salted variations a few times to see if I could get to the lake faster without having to make a pit stop and wasn't impressed with the results. It could be that anything that you can present dead here that resembles the bottom of the food chain is likely to work when live bait isn't constantly available on a hook. Your innovation is certainly useful and I appreciate the great advice as always.[] I think I might try some TD technique with dead bait this year and see if that will get the bite when the fishing is tough. The extra effort might pay off. Though, thank God for mealies, waxies, night crawlers, and white bass and perch chunks. Do you think that scenting minnows with stuff like kool-aid, anise oil, etc. tends to work better for certain fish or is it fishing lore in your experience?[/quote]

Honestly, I've done a lot of reading on scents and many swear they attract fish.... Sometimes it can be sell gimic to attract fisherman and not fish....After I hit the lottery I'm going to buy a big aquarium and do research on my own to determine whether color and scent attracts fish....

What I have found through my years of experience is Vanilla seems to attract carp when put into dough balls or wheatie balls... Red food dye placed into cut bait, shrimp or beef will attract catfish during the day.... For bass, I've used crawdad attractants, garlic, crawlers, banana and just about everything else on the market.... Do they work, what I've noticed they don't help me catch anymore fish than without it... I not going to say it dosen't work, maybe it was the time I went fishing....Only way to get accurate results would be able to do scientific testing yourself and I know that is almost impossible....
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[fishguru73]

It's true that trout like some unusual scents... including WD-something for the less educated warden magnets. I have accidentally gotten a few tastes of Power Bait while bank grubbing. It has a less then subtle fishiness followed by a sweetness; not to be with an after dinner mint.[:p]
I've used a lot of different scented dough baits and all work well at times but the scientifically studied preference does seem to work more consistently. There is always a time you didn't bring the Zeke's. Trout seem to like it all. For the price of the cheese flavor I can get a few sticks of string cheese and skip reproducing the flavor. I'm sure you and I could have an interesting conversation about some of the unusual stuff we've found in a trout's stomach.
Certainly, any unwelcome scent brought on by handling and preserving bait can have a negative effect and added scents can have the desired masking effect. I definitely agree that slitting the bait open can draw a more vigorous reply.
I also agree that the right scent, in a given situation, can really make a difference and many different scents have helped me with different fish. I don't think I use them as often as I should when pitching jigs at weary fish.
There is a claim that walleye like strawberry Kool-Aid soaked bait fish. I wonder if the color is the big factor or if the scent makes the difference? Maybe it's another design on catching fishermen instead of fish. Buy this manual and you too can know how the native Americans have used strawberries to lure monster walleyes for centuries.[:p] I get it for carp... but walleye? You don't know what you don't know but man it's hard to get into expirementing with the unknown if you have success doing what makes the most sense.
Maybe a board survey to find out what experimental scents and colors really produce would be informational or, at the least, entertaining. However, if somebody caught a Utah state record walleye with Berry Blue Kool-Aid soaked red sides, my jaw would hit the floor.[laugh]
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[fishguru73]

If you win the lottery consider me your co-theorist.[angelic] Scents do work in different instances when targeting specific species in a particular body of water where say, crayfish are a popular menu item. I think I could have worded my question better by referencing unusual scent and color combination. I guess my main thought on the deal was... are there weird combination's (shad and lime juice[:p], redside and Red Bull[shocked], chub and chocolate[crazy], etc.) that really do work for certain kinds of fish? I always thought that the molasses I used in my homemade carp recipe was the kicker. I might find that vanilla really has some appeal and, if it does, maybe we could do an all day slap down on the radioactive ones in the Jordan.
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[Madman25]

Corn used for catching trout ( would be scent or apeal)... I personally don't know, but some use Corn as a chum, by throwing in the whole can, which supposedly brings in bait fish... Bigger fish are attracted by bait fish... Honestly, bass fishing I truly believe most bites are reaction bite imitating type of bait fish are eating...

Here would be a good test, throw two baits in the water both exactly the same, one with scent and one with out it... Watch the baits closely with out moving them, if scent attracts you should be able to see fish get close to the bait... This scientific test could be used in clear water reservoirs where water is very visible... Dosen't take much thought at all to find ways to test scents and colors... Now noise is definately attractant, and I truly believe that will triger more bites than scent or color... Imitating bait fish rushing through water, such as a spinnerbait or clicking sounds a crawdad makes the lure more attracted to the fish... Trial and error is the only way to answer many of these questions... Piece of hotdog I caught my biggest carp off of, so there are many home made recipes that can be used to catch fish....
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